Bethlehem Steel

Posted by Bradleytank 12 years, 4 months ago to Business
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As I drive by my old customer Bethlehem Steel... I question who is left in American manufacturing. The fragmented manufacturing and specialization has created a void. A cloud of regulations and tax law have economically engineered an economic storm equilivant to a nuclear winter.


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  • Posted by Non_mooching_artist 12 years, 4 months ago
    It looks like a wasteland, where the manufacturing plants and mills have closed. Being from PGH, it was not good to see. Unfortunately, the unions pushed the mills beyond the point of no return. The ever present government over regulation and crippling taxes, coupled with outrageous union demands obliterated manufacturing here in the states. It's not going to get better until people wake up and boot this liberal regime that is entrenched!
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    • Posted by j_IR1776wg 12 years, 4 months ago
      "The ever present government over regulation and crippling taxes, coupled with outrageous union demands obliterated manufacturing here in the states." As an old U. S. Steel guy, I would ask you to include a hidebound and arrogant management with the rest of the culprits.
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      • Posted by coaldigger 12 years, 4 months ago
        My father worked for "The Corporation" and it was easy to see that management became willing to take the path of east resistance and cave into the demands of unions that had the politicians on their side for the benefit of their votes and donations. Just like the moochers in AS, they knew it was not right but thought it would last as long as they lived. This is further proof that without a philosophy based on rationality, we are doomed.

        The greatest sight I have ever observed is the pouring of molten metal. Tapping a blast furnace, pouring steel into a torpedo car or pouring a ladle into a tundish with all the splashes and sparks is an unbelievable experience. Of course, I also get off pushing coke (no, cot that kind) out of a Koppers-Becker chemical recovery oven, but that's just me!
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        • Posted by $ blarman 12 years, 4 months ago
          My father worked pushing coke at the US Steel plant in Orem, Utah while attending college. He could see the beginning of the end, though and got a Masters in Electrical Engineering. Made good money, worked brutal rotating shifts, and was glad to be done.
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        • Posted by Non_mooching_artist 12 years, 4 months ago
          I can still picture to coke ovens along rte 51 near Elizabeth, PA, all lined up and nestled into the hillside.
          I agree, molten steel is something to behold. In my PoW post, that is the business I would love to own.
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      • Posted by Non_mooching_artist 12 years, 4 months ago
        Without a doubt.
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        • Posted by RonC 12 years, 4 months ago
          The heyday of the USA was when used our resources and our labor to manufacture products our salesmen could deliver to world. Politically, in the mid 70s we decided to move away from this. Nixon invented the EPA by executive order, OPEC staged the first oil embargo, Rachael Carson's "Silent Spring" from a decade earlier was now taught in school as environmental gospel, and the book "Future Shock" told all of us readers that the industrial economy must naturally give way to the service economy. Well, let me lay out a few facts of life our Nation and it's politicos have overlooked.

          1. Wealth is created by 5 simple long term items or situations. Land, improvements to land, resources, value added through manufacture, and intellectual property. That's not me, it's from Funk and Wagnel's. Checking the above paragraph you will see that for many years we, as a Nation, utilized both resources and value added through manufacturing to create immense wealth. The moment our gov't decided to encourage the service economy and export labor (chiefly through tax policy) we became a debtor nation. This is because we now, and for years, consume more than we produce. At the same time this shift leaves behind roughly 1/3 of our population. 40 years ago these people. for the most part, had jobs that paid them very well for the skill sets they had. They paid taxes, paid union dues in some cases, bought homes, went to Kroger every week, had a family, and prospered. Now about 1/3 of the US population does not participate in the labor force. They are dependents of the state in one way or another. This adds to the debtor nation status. We not only consume more than we produce, we borrow money to pay for the things those unable to find work need. "We are our brother's keeper." It's the right thing to do, or maybe "it's fair!"

          2. Wealth has a lasting value, or intrinsic value. Look carefully at the service industries. Does a stock broker or banker add value to what he produces or do they simply rearrange the papers? Each of us use some sort of tax service every year. Last year my tax return was 95 pages long. While I deeply appreciate the knowledge my tax professional has, what is the intrinsic value of those 95 pages on April 16th? How much is a haircut worth in 4 weeks? While it is convenient to have a valet park my car, I'm not sure he makes the trip downtown worth more.

          My point is to have a thriving economy takes more than the service industries. Someone actually has to get their hands dirty creating wealth. I imagine it takes government for infrastructure, manufacturing, and services to create a 3 legged stool for the economy to sit on. Take away, or damage any leg and it makes thing pretty uncomfortable.

          3. Jobs trickle down, but wealth percolates up. It's true, the rich get richer, but consider this. The higher laborers climb the economic ladder the more wealthy they become. With persistence they reach a point where their assets earn enough they shall never have to labor again, which is another characteristic of wealth. Being rich is a 6 figure executive job with perks. It's great. But when two companies merge and only need one management team, that is a very shallow job pool to navigate. On the other hand, being wealthy means it's OK to take the month off because the cash flow just keeps coming. It's not related to effort, it's wealth.

          Somehow in the telling and reliving of the "Robin Hood" tale America has lost it's way. I find it interesting that Robin Hood is so closely spelled to Robbin' Hood, which is a street thug. I guess the original Robin Hood was a Sherwood Forest thug! The problem with the story is the rich guy will simply avoid Sherwood Forest, rather than be robbed by the mouches (Hoods). They may get travelers cheques from the Templars or Dominicis or they may go by another route. In modern America we have international corporations leaving profits offshore rather than be scalped by our Presidential Barber. I've noticed that everyone gets a haircut except the ones that need to be cut back!

          Finally, nobody I know wants dirty water or smokey air. But just as the county building inspector tells a builder what is needed for a given structure, it seems to me that the EPA could say if you're going to build a refinery...do it this way. The same for factory, pipeline, or any other needed addition. What we have today is a stone wall that values minnows more than the San Joaquin Valley farmers and turtles more than oil pipelines. In that regard, we deserve the economy we have allowed to be hijacked. Since this is the AS forum I would add this. Many of us have created our own gulch and refuse to do one thing more until the government ceases to punish thoughtful accomplishment and reward careless neglect. In my case, I don't have to be another Donald Trump, I just have to have enough assets to support my lifestyle, lay my taxes off on one or two of the tenants, and enjoy the fine car they provide for me. Why should I do one thing more for them to take away?

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          • Posted by amagi 12 years, 4 months ago
            Interesting post with many good points, Ron C, but why have EPA people involved in building refineries,
            factories or pipelines? Looking at the EPA Abuse
            web site they have done enough damage to our
            economy. I'd trust a civil engineer way before an EPA bureaucrat.
            bureaucrat
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            • Posted by RonC 12 years, 4 months ago
              I've heard it said that an Executive Order by one President can be flipped by a later President. Wouldn't it be refreshing to have a LEADER that was headstrong and freedom loving enough to abolish the EPA, the war on drugs, the energy commission, and as much of the alphabet soup as imaginable. I agree that civil or construction engineers would be the authority of choice, I was just pointing out the dead end street the economy faces as long as the mindless regulators continue their craft. It was probably lazy on my part just to make them more flexible. In my wildest dream they would be gone, then there's less danger of them coming back to stop progress again. That's another interesting thing about the corruption of the language that surrounds the progressives. When they are in charge, progress stops. Look at Cuba, a 1958 Chevy is considered a new car. At the height of the cold war, the best car USSR could make had a two stroke engine, smoked like a steel mill, and on a good day was unreliable. The good news is, under this group's leadership, we now count on the Soviet's for a ride to the space shuttle we built. What a proud day for the USA. But, I believe that was part of the plan too. Diminish everything American's are proud of. Apologize to the world. Make us believe we are not exceptional. When will a leader stand and tell the people to look up, stand up, pick up their stuff, and let's go to work?
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              • Posted by RevJay4 12 years, 4 months ago
                Exactly my line of thought regarding the whole thing we have going on in our nation now. Dump the alphabet soup agencies and get back to the smallest government possible with the individual States playing the role they were meant to play. The actual governing of this nation was not meant to be at the federal level. The founders knew that concentrating power at the fed level would ultimately corrupt itself. And the nation would fail. We are seeing the results of that right now.
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          • Posted by 12 years, 4 months ago
            Robin Hood stole from the rich (tax collecting government - Sheriff) not rich citizens. In the serf system there were limited free men that were rich. Americans have romanticized Robin Hood as a class warfare hero, he should be remade as a Super Tax Accountant that battle tax code by day and creates tax free religions by night.
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            • Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 4 months ago
              And he returned the money to the taxed, which wasn't the serfs, but the landowners. That's what Runnymede was all about. The Barons had been taxed enough already.
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            • Posted by RonC 12 years, 4 months ago
              That's a fair dissection. Today the roles are reversed. The gov't version of Robin Hood means the big 0 and his legions will take all and "redistribute" it. I've got a novel idea. Why don't they make the whole country an enterprise zone and redistribute wealth to the most energetic, hardest, and smartest working people? Equal opportunity seems more interesting to me than equal outcomes.
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  • Posted by squareone 12 years, 4 months ago
    In California's central valley water is the major "raw material." The governments of the U.S. and California are working to dry this up. Delta Smelt, anyone?
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 12 years, 4 months ago
    Hello Bradleytank,
    It is a sad state of affairs. It is a scene much like many parts of my neck of the woods around Detroit... they look like something straight out of AS. Soon there will be no industry at all if things aren't changed.
    I like your screen name. I have produced many military components, some for the successors of the Bradley Tank...
    Respectfully,
    O.A.
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  • Posted by zydecokid 12 years, 4 months ago
    I lived in Bethlehem for a few years, the steel mill is now a Sands Casino and an amphitheater with the old Bessemer Converters as a backdrop. There is NO HOPE for every returning that mill to manufacturing, and you're right from tax laws to regulations, there is a choke hold on manufacturing.
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    • Posted by coaldigger 12 years, 4 months ago
      I loved going to Bethlehem and corporate headquarters. They had beautiful young women in grey sharkskin suits that would escort you to the office of the party you had an appointment with. They were the epitome of class and very pleasant to look at.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 12 years, 4 months ago
    I'm originally from Detroit. Wanna talk about a wasteland? Plants are shells with broken windows. Supplier manufacturers have disappeared. Vast swaths of the city look like bombed out sections of Beirut. That was when I left the area in '89 and the Dems had been in power around 25 years. Now, after 45 years, that the Dems have been in power, the city is even worse and has actually gone bankrupt. Are people so committed to an agenda even though they can plainly see that it's false that they are willing to allow it to destroy the very thing that sustains them? As impossibly stupid as it seems, the answer is yes.
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  • Posted by alonzocobb 12 years, 4 months ago
    There is more manufacturing output in the US today than ever. What's been happening is that economies of scale have been shrinking, leading to a permanently lower demand for labor. Just as the agricultural sector once required over 60% of the workforce to produce crops, and today we have 2% growing more than ever, so the same is happening with manufacturing. We don't need a Bethlehem steel mill any more, where thousands worked, when we have mini mills that produce more and better product with merely hundreds of employees. Given the shrinking of the labor force, we should have more entrepreneurship taking us into new technologies, rather than bemoaning the decline of old-line smokestack industries, which were obsolete as early as the end of World War II. The only reason the obsolescence wasn't apparent was because the rest of the world had been bombed into oblivion, but when they rebuilt, the problems began to show up.
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    • Posted by coaldigger 12 years, 4 months ago
      What you say is largely true although what is defined as "manufacturing" may have been fudged a bit to arrive at the statistic. Nevertheless, what we bemoan is not BETHLEHEM STEEL, but the environment that allowed the power of free market capitalism to produce such giants of industry. If not locked in by government backed labor agreements, tax incentives and other regulations the large aggrandizement of financial worth would have been preserved by converting to more efficient methods of production and the ones that didn't would have perished much sooner. Remember this was before the union-job preservation and crony protecting concept of "too big to fail".
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      • Posted by alonzocobb 12 years, 4 months ago
        Manufacturing is the conversion of natural resources into useful products, like iron ore into steel or cotton into clothing, or the creation of things that aren't a simple conversion, like computers, robots or cell phones. That's how I arrive at my statistics. I also don't bemoan the fact that US Steel or any other firm grew to giant size; it was usually because the founder(s) saw what others didn't, especially in terms of economies of scale. Now that economies of scale are no longer important, you'll notice that the size of firms is shrinking, and the giants are joining the dinosaurs. The important thing is whether or not the business model is realistic, not whether or not the government or some other entity can control what's going on, because they can't, at least not in a positive way. Also, remember that taxes weren't an issue before 1913, at which time the giants already existed. The government just needs to get out of the way, and let the market do its thing. Period.
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    • Posted by RonC 12 years, 4 months ago
      The number of widgets may be up. I watch a show on cable called "How it's Made". They make a segment of how just about anything is made. My anecdotal observation is this. If you have a job where you actually make something with your hands, you have a rare and beautiful thing. Many of the factories are robotic until you get to the packaging and inspecting. So, the pad lock factory that once employed 1000 no has need for only 10 or 12. Automation is in fact a job killer. Further that that, while huge amounts of labor force were laid off in 2008, management took advantage of that moment and put more automation on line in almost every environment. So, total output is probably up while we have about a 65% participation rate. This is another reason offshore labor is not as attractive as in earlier times. Robots don't have a very large reject rate once they are programmed and running well. Cheap labor has an atrocious reject rate. If it comes to running robots here or there, it's cheaper to do it here and avoid shipping from overseas.

      All of that is progress what we need is to create about 30 million careers. Jobs are OK, but what we really need is economic ladders for each segment of the population to climb. If everyone that wanted a career could have one and climb up out of the poverty trap, then selfish capitalism would have lifted more people up than LBJ's war on poverty ever has. The political problem with work is that it's delayed gratification rather than the instant thrill of spending your EBT card.
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  • Posted by JBW 12 years, 4 months ago
    We can all scream about what has happened to us as the Governemet continues to grow, but remember that it is the Voter that votes in the members of Congress so, until we reverse that trend, we'll continue to slid into the abyss of Socialism.

    Once we did this by Revolution, but now they have the guns. We'd lose. So, the only route is by trying to hold things together until we can get ever more "Believers" into Congress and hope we make it in time. Otherwise, we will have lost and can expect to be renamed "The United States of Communism".
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    • Posted by squareone 12 years, 4 months ago
      We have guns, too. Losing is not an option.
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      • Posted by coaldigger 12 years, 4 months ago
        Our guns are ineffective against the militarized police much less the army. I detested the the cowardice of the Boston bombers but I only became afraid when I saw the tanks, and armory that the police had at their disposal. Hundreds of bullets sprayed into the boat to dispense with a wounded, unarmed terrorist was not the end I wanted to see. I know trial are expensive but that is American justice or used to be. Drones flying over borders into countries whose governments are not a threat to kill suspected terrorists along with innocent bystanders is not cool with me either. I would opt for a public trial in absentia, then if anyone was foolish enough to be caught with the person and they shared his sentence, it would be more palatable. This also has the advantage that a single person, in anonymity, could not legally send a drone in my front door because I am outspoken.
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  • Posted by cold-iron 12 years, 4 months ago
    As long as we use unions to blackmail companys for more money they will leave America. The governments regulations are the finale blow. The highest corp. tax helps.
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  • Posted by TexanSolar 12 years, 4 months ago
    I once worked US Steel at a Steel Mill in Bay town, Texas. This steel mill in now owned by a company from India.
    While I worked there, a large suspension bridge was built over the Houston Ship Channel about 4 miles away from the bridge. The large amount of steel required for this bridge could have very easily provided by US Steel or Bethlehem Steel. But, for some reason the steel was shipped from South Africa.
    Why could this steel not have been provided from an American Company? Taxes, regulations, free trade? Whatever reason it is unacceptable.
    Our government should promote our manufacturing, not work to destroy it.
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  • Posted by Stormi 12 years, 4 months ago
    I worked in the finance dept. of Monarch Machine Tool in Ohio. When the unions would strike, office personal were expected to double on keeping production going. The dumbest of the workers seemed always to head the unions, Why is that? We would cross picket lines, cars were vandalized, but in the end, it was the idiotic plans of MBAs which brought down the company. With no idea of the industry or how products were made, in tight times, I admit, they had foolish ideas that just did not relate to what was needed. Someone who wants to innovate and get things done the best way, needs to be on that shop floor talking to the men who know. Customers want a reliable product, want it quickly, and if some modification is needed, they want that too. Often, I would come across unpaid invoices, and when I called the customer, there was a problem unresolved. You better believe I made some smoke until someone got it straightened out. No excuse for anything but the best customer service. When I left, my replacement did not even pursue past due accounts, and the MBAs were there, out to change everything. For years as a newly married, we lived across the street from Monarch, it was very sad, and still is, to see it empty. We have since moved to the burbs with land, but we both have a soft spot for that once thriving company.
    The current generation are coming out of school with shiny specialization degrees, or no degree and no training. A wise professor once defined specialization as, "Knowing more and more about less and less." Pretty much fits. We are no longer a nation of well rounded individuals. One company had 200 openings in their IT business, but could not fill them. Today's computer geeks apparently could not relate to the people they were serving. They knew nothing of the fields for which they would program computers, had limited skills in communication and conversation, and lacked a desire to care about any of it. Customer service is an overlooked factor in the success of a business, and that skill is going down the tubes in this country. Read Amazon customer posts about products - they will not be repeat customers of a brand when they have had a bad customer service experience.Kids have no practical hands on skills today, with the exception of a few vocational schools, leaving them qualified for little more than McDonald's when they graduate.Actually, maybe not even that, as some cannot even mop the floor without laving a lake for customers to fall on.
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  • Posted by 12 years, 4 months ago
    All great history. Agreed technology played a large role, steam engines to flip ingots, where impressive to watch, are probably not the most efficient. The annealing train trip to from Bethlehem to Steelton was probably a costly expense not incurred by competitors.
    .
    The expansion on a mountainside had to be creative and differ greatly from a build to suit opportunity of new competitors.

    I think the montra my father taught me
    Constantly compete with yourself to improve, it will guarantee your competitors the strongest foe.
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  • Posted by coaldigger 12 years, 4 months ago
    Bethlehem Steel and Inland Steel were pretty determined to stay in the game with world class steel production facilities in the US. Many of the big companies were backing off because of technological advantages of plants in Japan and Europe in the late 60's and early 70's and to their credit they kept investing. We were an engineering and construction company and did some big projects for both of these companies then. Bethlehem added both the Burns Harbor and Sparrows Point works during that period. The day we secured a huge contract from them was almost my last. On the way back to Pittsburgh after our final sales presentation and the awarding of the contract, we were in a terrible storm and our Fairchild F27 couldn't climb above it. We could have gone around but were in a hurry to get back, pick up our wives and have a great dinner at a country club so we opted to go right through. We were truly lucky to have made it back to the hangar at Allegheny County airport but the worst part was that we were consuming a lot of liquids while being thrown around and the crush to the door and the restroom when we hit ground was pretty wild. We loved what we did and took great pride in it. Sure we made money but we were building mammoth industrial facilities and it felt good. Sure people were employed in good jobs and American products were made that consumers enjoyed but we mostly thought about getting the job done, designing, erecting and starting up the facility so we could go on to the next one. What fun! No one can get that from a government check!
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    • Posted by squareone 12 years, 4 months ago
      Most people want only security and they don't care who pays for it.
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      • Posted by coaldigger 12 years, 4 months ago
        Security is boring. If you aren't at risk you are not making any progress. People used to be surprised that I did not gamble but I always said I do, just with things that matter. I gambled to produce value not to squander the medium of that value already produced.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 12 years, 4 months ago
    It should also be noted that technology had a part to play in the decay of the steel industry here in the United States. Most steel plants in the United States were built in the 1930's based on the technology of that era. After World War II, only the United States escaped the total razing of their manufacturing sectors. So in the late 40's and 50's, new steel manufacturing plants came online around the world with technological improvements that made them more cost-effective to run. These so-called mini-mills were cheaper and more flexible than their US competitors. The US steel mills would have been driven out of business even sooner were it not for the transportation costs of the steel.

    Now I do not doubt that the labor costs due to unionization and mismanagement also played a part, but one should not ignore the simple market forces of improved technology on an industry with such a high capital investment cost.
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    • Posted by coaldigger 12 years, 4 months ago
      This is so funny. Your post is right out of a paper I did for an Economic Forecasting class in grad school. I even developed a mathematical model using regression analysis for capital spending based on world wide investment data. My boss got me an interview with Father Hogan at Fordam who was an industry expert of the time and I my report was complete with his quotes. I thought my paper was pretty impressive but my professor was pretty sarcastic and when he had graded my paper and was handing it back he said "So, you are saying we should have bombed our own plants too at the end of WW II?"
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      • Posted by $ blarman 12 years, 4 months ago
        Sorry. Didn't mean to plagiarize. Please edit my post with the appropriate MLS-style attribution:

        "The Rise and Fall of the Steel Industry", Wall Street Journal. coaldigger. 1997.

        :)
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        • Posted by coaldigger 12 years, 4 months ago
          It is always a pleasure to converse with people of intelligence and wit. My pitiful term paper was written in 1968. I don't know where the WSJ got their info. I suspect Fr. Hogan.
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  • Posted by AmericanAthena 12 years, 4 months ago
    I work for AMPCO Metal. We have a foundry in IL. We're always looking for more ways to bring work back to the US. Just think of how great the results would be if we supported these local businesses in addition to bemoaning the loss we've already experienced. There is hope.
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    • Posted by $ Susanne 12 years, 4 months ago
      Add to that the beauty of giving our people not just meaningful and well paying jobs, but in so doing bringing us from a nation of consumers to a nation of producers... It would be, well, a second Industrial Revolution, once again placing us far ahead of the foreign so-called competition. Thank you for being a part of the revolution.
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  • Posted by ChuckyBob 12 years, 4 months ago
    To add insult to injury, the Cougar Mountain Lion mine near Cedar City that used to supply Bethlehem is now exporting ore concentrate to China. So not only have we exported the steel jobs, we are now helping the the Chinese to keep the jobs in China.
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  • Posted by amagi 12 years, 4 months ago
    Than you, Bradleytank, for bringing back memories.
    Bethlehem Steel was a grand old company and a
    customer of the NY company I worked for long ago.
    No doubt, our gvt is guilty of helping B.S. falter,
    as was the cheaper cost of 'rolled steel' from the
    Netherlands, I do believe. That was around 1970.

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  • Posted by USAONENATIONUNDERGOD 12 years, 4 months ago
    Now the Prez won't but he should have named any...any mfg. plants that are stepping up production...there are none!!! Bethlehem Steel was a thriving business before the Unions caused them to go under...many many mfg companies in Maryland went under for the same reasons as well
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  • Posted by Danno 12 years, 4 months ago
    From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_M....

    "The stock market crash of 1929 finished off what years of wanton spending had started. He spent his last years in a small apartment. He could no longer afford the taxes on "Riverside" and it was seized by creditors. He had offered to sell the mansion at a huge loss but there were no takers. At his death ten years later, Schwab's holdings in Bethlehem Steel were virtually worthless, and he was over US$300,000 in debt. Had he lived a few more years, he would have seen his fortunes restored when Bethlehem Steel was flooded with orders for war material."

    I am thinking about the Military-Industrial Complex. Need profits...
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