Completely understand the feelings about the language, but not the logic behind that "belief", and here in the Gulch I thought that logic is supposed to lead "belief".

The problem with the dividing line they've chosen is that it ("viability") cannot be determined well medically by anyone. Is it when the heart forms and beats? When it has the start of limbs? Heck, natural causes can cause termination right up to and through the point of delivery and throughout life. So trying to find that dividing line of "viability" outside the womb is trying to rope the wind. The logical dividing line - to me - of the gestation cycle is the point at which "it" can become a functioning human being, given all natural process factors fall like dominoes into place. That line occurs sometime between the two zygotes meeting, the mixing of genetic materials, and the first cell replication.

After that first cell replication either that "tissue mass" becomes a functional human being or natural causes take it out. Using artificial means is tipping the scales. It takes what could become a functional human being logically and terminates it artificially and before its natural course. Is that murder? Is it murder at 40? Is it murder at 20? 2? 1 minute? Minus 1 minute? Minus 6 months?

I am not a religious believer. I am a scientist turned computer geek. I'm not using any biblical texts, just biology and logic. As the saying goes, A is A. If others can find the flaw in this logical path, please tell me.

And we can certainly discuss various opinions on how to make 'legal' come more into agreement with 'right'.

I do not have a problem with abortions under the current legal definition and I find that the outrage I am reading is aimed at the callousness of selling fetal tissue to the highest bidder...which is just silly. The embryo is already dead - go ahead and make the best use possible of the tissue in it.

Jan

What is "legal" is not always right.

And that is what I think too - if someone thinks that abortion is murder at any time then they should not be forced to have an abortion. For people who think that early term abortions are OK but late term abortions are not, then there needs to be - and is - a legal definition of abortion. (They can always decide NOT to have an abortion; the law is to prevent someone from having an abortion really late term.)

Jan

There is a definition of what constitutes a legal abortion. If what PP did meets that definition, then it is not murder.

If you would like to discuss what that definition is vs what it should be, then this is something that I sometimes think about - but is a different question than the emotionally-charged one of PP selling the organs of aborted embryos for scientific or medical purposes.

Jan

If you can view those videos and come back with that swill, all I can say is that you need to apologize to Josef Mengele.

I do not understand. The embryos were not "already dead" until they were killed by PP. They are killed in the womb because PP wants access to the entire baby and it's parts. They are completely formed babies and some can survive outside the womb with our modern technology. So how can it be said they were "already dead" when that just is not so? I do not understand the logic. Sorry.

I wish I could believe that. But as long as his #1 target is Planned Parenthood, he's fighting the wrong battle. Abortion is cheaper than the welfare-for-life that most of those babies will get if abortion is stopped.

Point well taken.

jlc is still stiff from jousting last week...

Jan

I agree with prof611 both in that inflamed rhetoric does not make a good argument and in that most of what PP is actually good. If individuals at PP are murdering infants who meet the definition of human, then they can and should be tried for infanticide. But that is not what people are anguished about - they are upset about the sale of parts of already dead embryos.

Planned Parenthood should not receive any gov funds, though. The gov should be no more in the business of making abortions than they should be in the business of running your healthcare.

Jan

1) Passive: Force Congress to their job according to the Constitution
2) Passive: Stop paying your taxes and mortgages
3) Active: Revoltution

Or maybe some believe as I do that abortion is murder at any time, but I still want abortion to be available to those who need it.

Rats, autocorrect change quiet to quite!

...William Shakespeare's Julius Caesar: "Cry 'Havoc!', and let slip the dogs of war"
The liberal establishment long ago committed itself to warfare. It has had the guile to avoid an open declaration... the loyal opposition must face the facts and respond accordingly.

I just do not want my money paying for what they do. PP should not get gov't money. They should stand alone like any other business. But, I have no choice, so the point is moot.

JLC (jlc) should conduct training in medieval martial arts!!! -- j
.

If you really have seen what you claim in your 2nd sentence, then life has already begun at that time, and abortion is murder. Since we agree, what is your problem? However, I still maintain that the majority of PP advocates are not murderers, so let's deal with the bad PPs seperately, and not smear the whole organization..

There is no doubt that we are the verge of a truly life or death battle. So, where are all those battling Knights who were eager for battle? Looks like most of them are hiding under their desks and only come out to tell those who are actually in the arena that they're going too far.

I totally disagree! I have seen for myself that 20 and 24 week old babies survive outside the womb at a neonatal facility. And it has been proven that some of these babies are born alive at PP and are brutally killed for their parts. What is happening at Planned Parenthood is a sign of our times of what we as a human race have degenerated into. We accept the killing of our young for money. Plain and simple.

I wonder what Margaret Sanger would say since she was the originator of P.P.?

It is way past time to go medieval.
This is why Trump is being cheered on.
The Donald is not about playing nice.
The image of a knight slinging a flail on a dark horse just entered old dino's head.
That knight ain't at all shiny either.
Evil lib blood splashes all over the place.
Oorah! Down with the Marxist masters!

Exactly! Too bad they use that issue to go after the Lib.'s collectivism.