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  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 10 years, 10 months ago
    This is clearly a candidate for saving money. Why we need a selective service department when no one except a few leftist who dream of drafting rich people want a draft?

    This is not the era of hundreds of thousands of soldiers with rifles. It's the era of technology and trained teams who can work in an environment with civilians all around. The days when we had 'lines' and you could shoot at the people on the other side are gone for the most part.

    A draft is involuntary servitude. For any gender.
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    • Posted by $ allosaur 10 years, 10 months ago
      Involuntary servitude is what I was forced to endure for two years between 1969 - 1971. Keep in mind that for years previous to that I did not feel free with the possibilty of conscription always hanging over my head.
      As I've written in the Gulch before, I did not feel free until a taxi took me out through the gates of a base en route to the airport with an honorable discharge in my baggage..
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      • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
        I was of course RA or Regular Army. However I never recited the oath the many times I took it nor signed any thing that about it. Why? I'm of the mind speaking for Allosaurs US side of the situation that an oath demanded by force is null and void and serves no purpose. On the Regular Army side of the the mere fact I had voluntarily enlisted said it all . Nothing else was necessary. I always thought it a weak point in the system as both view points from the governments stand point were indefensible and oxymorons. but they were written by lawyers.
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        • Posted by $ allosaur 10 years, 10 months ago
          Back then watched the volunteers take the oath.
          Then I with a line of the conscripted was required to take a step forward.]
          That was all there was. A small step for a draftee or a big step into jail.
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      • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 10 years, 10 months ago
        I missed it by that much. Graduating high school in 1970 I was in college with a student deferment. My 1971 lottery number was 177 so when I got graduated odds didn't look good.

        It's left me with a strong impression about the draft.
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        • Posted by $ allosaur 10 years, 10 months ago
          The draft snapped me up when I got booted out of college for poor grades. (That was mostly due to not knowing what I wanted to do with my life).
          I got out of the service two months later with what the Marines called a "school cut" and I used the GI Bill to get a degree in Journalism (a major that was previously unavailable at the university that took me back). .
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          • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
            Count your blessings. I stayed in and retired in 1988. Signed up for fall term and was told I had to use up four years of GI Bill in three months. Seems they forgot to tell us we had to go out and earn it twice. the first one took blood. the second one was all about money. I ended up paying my own way having only two years left for the first degree and and one for the second. Not quite true I applied for and received a scholarship. What happend to the Education Center programs? Signed up for evening classed on multiple occasions and was jerked out on mulitiple occasions. those were for rear echelon types who neve pulled field duty. But it did teach me a valuable lesson. Don't believe a damn thing the recruiter tells you.
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            • Posted by $ allosaur 10 years, 10 months ago
              I'll never forget three Parris Island recruits who told a drill instructor that a recruiter told them they had "aviation guaranteed" when told they learned they had a different MOS. This was like a day before graduation "you're a real Marine now" day.
              The D.I. simply grinned and said they had been lied to.
              I was a supply clerk. Somewhere along the line I was told that all the grunts the Marines needed were joining. What they lacked for were people smart enough to be admin and supply clerks and such were those draftees who were diverted into the Marines. .
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              • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
                then there were the join the navy learn to be a medic and work in air conditioned hospitals etc etc and found out Corpsmen from the Navy fit real well in Marine utilities

                Next one. I'm signed up for Germany but it took a four year contact to do it!.. Guess what is on the way to Vietnam if you had east instead of west? they did get their 24 hours - and a pair of jungle boots.

                or those that learned the E in ETS did not mean Elapsed but Estimated.

                or the National Federal Guard when they learned Summer Camp and Annual Training were two entirely different things.

                NEVER trust a recruiter. They will lie to you even when they don't have to.

                Recruiters never went to an academy where the oath was ''will not lie, cheat , steal nor tolerate those that do.'' But their Commanders did.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
      Don't toss your cookies laughing...Because it's the law!

      it's all about control of citizens except by excluding women it's unconstitutional in several ways. The constitution doesn't exempt women from the draft. It only defines the ages for men. It's the old cannon fodder and baby factories mentality.Violates the equal rights amendment big time.especially now we have women going through ranger school. 40 started three it looks like are surviving. Amazon Corps just around the corner.

      You are exactly correct in your remark. Make the soldier worth a hundred or more of the other side instead of taking a hundred or more to account for each one of the other side.

      No MORE Cannon Fodder!
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      • Posted by wdg3rd 10 years, 10 months ago
        Not sure if you were paying attention at the time, but the Equal Rights Amendment failed passage by the States about three decades back.
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        • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
          Can't argue with that. But I believe it was since included in other Civil Rights actions. Doesn't matter. Women are not excluded by The Constitution anyway - it's a 230 year old way of looking at things. The only excuse for keeping them in second class status is thier age old use as baby factories. Which is probably whywomen keep trying to add rights but sadly not add responsibilities. One of which is getting to sign that little card at age 18 - just like the men.
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  • Posted by Ranter 10 years, 10 months ago
    It's an irrelevant law, but it is still a law. Men (but not women) are subject to the draft, under the law, even when the draft is not being used. In order for the draft to be used, the Selective Service System must have a list of those subject to the draft. So, men must register. In the event Congress decides to reactivate the draft, those men of the appropriate age levels who are on the list will then be subject to the draft. Yes, the draft is involuntary servitude, but it is LEGAL involuntary servitude in this country, even though no one is being drafted. Involuntary servitude is legal when authorized by law.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
      It's not irrelevant when the women get a free ride on student loans and government jobs. At the very least they should be required to perform some sort of service military or non-military even it it's their sons with a minimum amount required. Men get two years women get two baby boys. Cannon Fodder = Baby Factories. THEN they can have their student loans and government jobs.
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      • Posted by Ranter 10 years, 10 months ago
        It's irrelevant because there is no draft.
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        • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
          Where did you hear that fairy tale? If there is no draft why is there a draft board a selective service system and legal requirement to sign up for military conscription? And why is it that only ONLY secular progressives were asking for it to be activated? I have heard sea stories and war stories but that's the first fairy tale I've heard that ends with you got to be kidding.
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          • Posted by Ranter 10 years, 10 months ago
            The draft itself was abolished when the all-volunteer military was created after the wind-down of the Viet Nam War. The selective service administration and registration was left intact, however, so that the database of names of eligible draftees would be available should Congress ever decide to enact a draft in the future. There is no draft. There is a pool of names in case Congress changes its mind, or in case we get into a really threatening war that needs millions of soldiers.
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            • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
              Do you know how to parse ''is''

              and they all lived happily ever after until one day the Pied Piper.....legally....took their children away.

              What story are you going to tell the day after?

              You might tell Yoda it didn't work.
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              • Posted by Ranter 10 years, 10 months ago
                The draft cannot be re-started without Congressional action. Even if the whole selective service system had been shut down, and there were no registration, Congress could still reactivate the draft, reestablish the selective service system, and start registration again. Until one or the other happens, there IS no draft.
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                • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
                  So back to the question. When you are taking your son or grandson to the induction center how will you explain saying there is no draft?

                  When you are the first Granpa or dad to have your kid come home in a box how will you explain no draft to your wife, daughter, grandkids.

                  In the Gulch we deal with reality and one of the realities of life is Article One Section Eight of the Constitution. Congress gets to set al the rules for the military and military service. The Tonkin Gulf resolution took about five minutes.

                  Your kids and grandkidas perhaps already signed up and gave their ok at age 18

                  and you rely on the no wars with millions of troops or some huge world wide event?

                  Congress can be as selective as they want. The only restriction is age. they can go after particle beam physicists with at least a masters and eight years experience if they so choose.

                  But I want to hear your explanation for the inevitable explanation of your no draft belief. What ever will you tel your family? Hans Christian Andersen did it?. The rest is just quack quack ducking reality.

                  Here you get smacked hard for fairy tales unless you advertise them as such up front. I have been the recipient myself and a little self confession is good for the mind. That's how we improve.

                  The Gulch is not for everyone.

                  All right. give your speech or ....were you thinking Canada? That's all right. I didn't mind not having them to baby sit at all.

                  That's reality. Other than why the anti-war movement quit all of a sudden and left us with that monstrosity. For shame for shame along with the women's movement abandoning their sisters in the nineties. for shame for shame.

                  Ante up or fold. Yoda has failed you this time.
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                  • Posted by Ranter 10 years, 10 months ago
                    By Act of Congress, everyone age 18 must register for the draft. It is not a matter of consent.

                    2. There is no draft until and unless Congress acts to re-institute the draft.

                    3. No one will be drafted unless that happens, so I don't have to explain to grandchildren or anyone else until and unless Congress re-institutes the draft.

                    4. If Congress re-institutes the draft, I will urge my grandchildren to obey the law.
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 10 years, 10 months ago
    Michael Aarethun, the Constitution, actually FOR-
    BIDS the draft. "Slavery, or involuntary servitude,
    except as punishment for crime whereof the party
    shall have been duly convicted, shall not exist within the borders of the United States or territories subject to its
    jurisdiction." The 13th Amendment says noth--
    ing about whether such "involuntary servitude'
    is for a good purpose or not, and makes no
    exception for military purposes. Of course, the
    Supreme Court has refused to recognize that
    fact, but it is still a fact. Whether those who
    voted the !3th Amendment in were sincere e-
    nough about it to mean for it to be taken that
    way I don't know; (men were drafted during the
    Lincoln administration); but that is not really
    relevant. The Amendment prohibits "involuntar-
    y servitude". Involuntary servitude is involun-
    try servitude. The Court went one way on Ples-
    sy vs. Ferguson, but went the other way on
    Brown vs. the Board of Education; and it may
    take a long time for the Court to recognize the
    truth on this one,too.
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    • Posted by $ allosaur 10 years, 10 months ago
      I recall an instructor at the Alabama Department of Corrections Academy during 1982 citing the 13th Amendment as proof that convicted prison inmates are legally slaves for the duration of their sentences.
      Inmates turned out to be slaves who could sue, though. They have to obey orders but inmates still have basic rights.
      That academy is located in Selma. Some may view that as ironic.
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  • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
    IN EVENT OF A FUTURE DRAFT
    [From Selective Service System website, April 2002: http://www.sss.gov/classif.htm]
    * See http://www.sss.gov/FSconsobj.htm for SSS�s information about conscientious objector status & for more classifications
    1-A Available immediately for military service
    1-O Conscientious objectors opposed to both combatant & noncombatant military training & service; fulfills service obligation as a civilian alternative service worker
    1-A-O Conscientious objectors opposed to training & military service requiring the use of arms; fulfills service obligation in a noncombatant position within the military
    2-D Ministerial students; deferred from military service
    3-A Hardship deferment; deferred from military service because service would cause hardship upon their families
    4-C Alien or dual national; sometimes exempt from military service
    4-D Ministers of religion; exempted from military service

    Which along with the lottery system can be changed by the whim of Congress for example they could add failure to pay student loans - Immediate induction.
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  • Posted by vido 10 years, 10 months ago
    You have to go back to the immediate aftermath of WW1, when rich women, helped with legions of beta orbiters, obtained the right to vote for women at the same time it was granted to men (little known fact, it seems), but whereas men had earned their right to vote in exchange for the duty of dying for their country (selective service), these women managed to get the same right to vote in exchange for... nothing.
    This is "equality" as defined by feminists : all privilege, no duty.
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    • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
      I wasd told back in my first week or two in the Army the portions of the Constitution that applied and the fact I was being paid $78 a monthmeant it wasn''t servitude. Another reason was my army serial number began with RA not US. But barring physically unable it didn't say anything about lotteries or games of chance. nor did it say anything about exceptions. So I have less of an argument with the Constiution than with the people who perverted it. Women should have been immediately given full lrights and responsibilities. They weren't, they haven't objected which makes them by their own choice second class citizens at best. especially when their major pro womens rights organizations turned their back on that worthy effort and their sistersin faor of Bubbas Cute Butt.
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      • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
        Soimewhere i there I forgot this part. To me as a regular the US's (draftees) were in a state of involuntary servitude.A fairly large percentage were more trouble than it took to have them along. Back then the army had it's head in the last century and that means the 1800s and were hypocrites to a fault. The cadets oath of not lie cheat steal nor tolerate those who do was to the rest of us a joke as it disappeared the moment they became second lieutenants. Anyone want to dispute me I'll state exact examples that were not only commonplace but required Army wide and involved a protection racket and outright black mail.My unit not so bad and it maybe different now. I retired in 88 Whose up for defending their alma mater at Hudson High or any of the other academies that used that phrase in the last century?(1900s)
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      • Posted by Ranter 10 years, 10 months ago
        My serial number began with B9.
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        • Posted by Ranter 10 years, 10 months ago
          I was not drafted. I volunteered.
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          • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
            That's nice. Mine was RA which means volunteered. My duty MOS was 111.1 and then 11B throughout. B9 I could find nowhere but he USAF, USMC, and USN did not come up with anything under google or wikpedia or the other search engines. Nor did USCG I went back 100 years. However it could mean a foreign country was involved. You got me on that one. The rest is just semantics and parsing. So B9? Any hints? I used to be a my country right or wrong advocate too. 24 years toting a rifle taught me to question that. But I won't belittle anyone else's service. Congress and the President(s) already have put it to use. Sign that card a young man is no longer a draftee so you are right on that score. What you become is an involuntary volunteer by accepting the situation. How they choose and whom they choose changes nothing. Just an inductee waiting for a reporting date to the induction center.

            l 'Volenti non fit iniuria' i.e. A person who consents does not suffer injury. If they claim otherwise or say 'everyone does it but we thought it was meaningless 'caveat emptor' let the buyer beware. Both are legal principles. And with that I'll await the B9 mystery.
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            • Posted by Ranter 10 years, 10 months ago
              My serial number: B99 05 03. USN. I was with Naval Intelligence, surface warfare officer, and deep cover operative. I was not drafted.

              A draftee does not volunteer. He is coerced into service by the government. It is legal involuntary servitude -- the only form of legal involuntary servitude we have had since the Civil War. We do not have it now. There are NO draftees at all in military service.

              Signing the draft card is only acknowledgement that you are on notice that you can be coerced into service. It is not a giving of permission, or an acceptance of that service.
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              • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
                Semantics - it's still the draft other than that in complete agreement. I'm still focused on the part that says you must sign up and if called you must report for duty or....the list of fines and penalties follow.
                Unfortunately I sincerely doubt the Congress etc. sees how coerced act is not valid. Nor the trouble it causes. But to reciprocate -

                the rest of my duty mos was 11B*S - 5th, 7th and 8th Groups amongst others. the asterik is a rank indicator. I also spent time as a Panama Canal Zone Police Officer. I had the privilege of command as an acting Platoon Leader on many occasions and a Battalion staff officer S2/S3/S4 as an Officer, Non-commissioned. We were trained far above our regular rank. We were wasted far more than was necessary.But I did love the work.The big guy didn't bless me with a son. Still can't find a list of Navy Serial number systems. But now I know what you will say should the day ever come.
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                • Posted by Ranter 10 years, 10 months ago
                  OK; it is the draft without the possibility of calling anyone up for service. Congress must reinstitute that before anyone can be called up. The Constitution bans involuntary servitude without due process of law. A Congressional act instituting a draft, signed into law by a President and implemented by the Defense Department is due process of law.
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                  • Posted by $ 10 years, 10 months ago
                    Agreed. No argument there. Great minds working together to a perfect answer! What do you think about the Congress with Presidential agreement using that system to recover unpaid student loans? (via qualifying for the current version of GI Bill education assistance). I use that as an example of something that might be possible. Wrangell of NY wanted it activated to provide an alternative to the influences of the barrios, ghettos and other such stating it helped him during the Korean War. I viewed it as an unecessary encumberence of the active military in effect a baby sitting service. So maybe the student loan repayment is not all that far fetched.

                    My experience with draftees and more with shake and bake whip and chill instant NCO's was not pleasant so i come back to the writings of Robert Heinlein...if its worth the effort enough will come forward. If enough do not come forward voluntarily it isn't worth the effort.'

                    Coupled with proper training, leading, arming and equipping and support ( pay and benefits) we get back to your original statement of not needing the draft at all. The citizen volunteer method seemed to work all right in Kuwait.
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  • Posted by pappyw47 10 years, 10 months ago
    I was rejected by Navy, Air Force, and Army because of heatimg. Then I was drafted in 1968 into Army MP. No attempt to get me to re-enlist because of noncombatant. Because of hearing. Still an experience I encourage my grandkids.
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