Galt's Gulch

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  • Posted by Ranter 10 years, 10 months ago
    The car rental is not a debt until you turn in your car at the end of the rental. At that point, rental agencies with which I have dealt in the past accept legal tender, but require a credit card before you can drive the car off their lot, as a guarantee that they will get paid. Airplane tickets are not property and are not debts; they are contracts. Payments under a contract can be whatever the parties to the contract have agreed. In making your reservation, you agreed that the airline could use your credit card to obtain payment for the contract called a ticket.
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    • Posted by scojohnson 10 years, 10 months ago
      That is correct, they will take a debit card, but depending on the franchise, will hold from $500 to $2500 on it until returned.

      A credit card is legal tender, it is denominated in U.S. Dollars, it's just a mode of conferring the dollar, as a check blank does.
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      • Posted by gafisher 10 years, 10 months ago
        Some as little as $100 in my experience, even less if you're renting because your car is in the shop. And then they hand you the keys to a highly portable piece of property usually worth $20,000 or more. Having your card on file gives them some assurance you'll come back. As for paying with currency, neither airline nor rental counters want lots of cash lying around.
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        • Posted by scojohnson 10 years, 10 months ago
          I agree, could you imagine the robbery threat with a line full of people with their cheap and a lot of cash behind the counter?

          It's a security mechanism- nothing more, I have an open account at Avis, have a card on file and rent about 15 to 20 a year for business travel. I never stand in line, I never pay a deposit, and I just do a quick reservation on my phone and pick it up in the airport parking lot. It's about getting their property back, and they absolutely have a right to ensure they do. If someone has terrible credit and doesn't have a bank card, it's probably not profitable to bother with that customer segment anyway. If it was, they wouldn't bend over backwards to please frequent business travelers.
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  • Posted by $ TomB666 10 years, 10 months ago
    It is legal tender for all "debts". When you go to purchase something there is no debt unless you buy it on credit. If you owe someone a debt and they refuse your paper, that absolves you from paying that debt. If you are trying to purchase something the seller has the right to demand payment in any form he chooses.

    I asked a self-service gas station owner one time just to see. He had posted a sign saying no $50 or $100 bills. I asked “if I have already filled my tank and offer to pay with a $50, what would you do?” He knew the law and said he posted the sign for security reasons (i.e. so as not to have to keep a lot of cash in his register to make change) but that he would have to accept the offer of payment or I would get a tank of gas at no charge. What has happened since then is that stations post a sign that you either pay with a credit/debit card or PREPAY with cash. This way they can lawfully refuse your $50 without giving you a tank of gas.

    The essence of the legal tender law is that YOU MUST accept government paper for a debt and to refuse the government's paper in payment of a debt means the debt is forgiven. This is especially critical to the Fed's ability to inflate the currency.

    Once upon a time (and I have examples of this) the phrase in the upper left of a Federal Reserve Note said “THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS PUBLIC AND PRIVATE, AND IS REDEEMABLE IN LAWFUL MONEY AT THE UNITED STATES TREASURY, OR AT ANY FEDERAL RESERVE BANK”. Check your FRNs. Today they only include the first 11 words. Your FRN's are redeemed by your local grocery store or gas station. They give you something of value for your paper. The Fed or the Treasury will only give you more paper (or junk coins) – ask to redeem a $20 to day at a bank and your choices are on the order of “do you want two 10's, four 5's, or 20 1's?”

    So, any business can refuse to accept your paper for any reason as long as you do not owe them a debt. If a business wants to do business with credit cards only that is there choice. If they want to do business in bushel's of corn that is also their choice. You of course are free to do business elsewhere.

    And if you think about it, not having a cash drawer at an airline ticket counter makes life so much easier for the airline employees.
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    • Posted by Flootus5 10 years, 10 months ago
      This is isn't about paper money, but I remember reading about a gas station owner awhile back that said he would accept junk silver coins for gasoline fill-ups. But more, he would accept the silver coins for the gasoline at a price that was prevalent at the time silver was in our money.

      Meaning he would accept a silver quarter for a gallon of gas. I remember 22 cent gallon gas when we had real money. When you do the math using current silver prices on the melt value of a Washington silver quarter (about .1808 oz Ag) that is about $2.82 cents. Roughly a gallon of gas just a short while ago.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 10 months ago
    I would add the following? Why would someone prefer credit cards over debit cards. Debit cards are immediate payment in full. Credit cards can be challenged and reversed. The car companies say it's for extra charges and routinely stop an amount larger than the projected bill. The Airlines however routinely commit some thing called conspiracy to defraud when the over sell seat spaces and then do not honor first bought first choice. It's both a criminal and civil charge. I have no answer for the last one except big payoffs to politicians which come to think of it brings up RICO.
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    • Posted by $ jlc 10 years, 10 months ago
      The purpose of credit cards is to smooth out cash flow. I have spent many years on the ragged edge of making ends meet. If there is an unexpected expense, then a credit card lets me meet that need and pay it off in increments over time.

      This is an essential philosophical underpinning for the use of credit cards. Too many people use them for electively purchasing things they do not need; on the other side of the spectrum are people who are so afraid to use them that they won't use a credit card to buy necessary food when they run out of money. Neither of these operational policies is functional: use credit cards for essentials to allow you to process debt as part of an ongoing cash flow.

      Jan
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    • Posted by TheRealBill 10 years, 10 months ago
      From a consumer security standpoint you are safer to use the credit card system than the debit. As much as they appear to be the same, they are not. Credit card networks have higher standards and requirements.
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      • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 10 months ago
        True and although there was a move to give debit cards the same protection I don't believe it went through. Using the Credit card then transferring money from your debit account gives you all the advantages. I use one when I rent a car then use cash or debit to pay the final bill. I also use VISA to cover the insurance except for third party liability which means as a non car owner my insurance bill runs around $90 a year. However that is not what I'm looking for.
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        • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 10 months ago
          How did I get from point A where i don't need a vehicle to point B where a one dayuse is handy?

          Do the Reacher! As in Jack. And while I'm at it boycott the movies. Stick to the books.
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  • Posted by blackswan 10 years, 10 months ago
    If you use a credit card, the credit card company takes the risk of your not paying, not the travel company. If you use cash, that's not the case.
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  • Posted by vido 10 years, 10 months ago
    Supposedly you must show identification documents to pay for these, so the "cash is not trackable" thing is a red herring.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 10 months ago
    I haven't flown for quite a while. Am I to understand that if I walked up to the ticket counter of an airline with cash, they'd refuse to sell me a ticket? Or charge me extra? American money not good enough to fly with? We have sunk very low folks.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 10 months ago
      they can't they have no cash drawer even on the airplane they do the drinks by CC.

      I also don't like the word process. That's offensicve and dehumanizing. Process is what you do in the Chicago stockyards. Boarding Procedure would work but being insulted .....by advocates of the PC crowd is a bit too much when you fly tell them so. Attack back! Also one stands on a podium and behind a lectern. Not only PC but illteratti speak.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 10 months ago
        As a devotee of the proper use of American English, I completely agree with you. There is a difference between definition and nuance. (See my diatribe in "unfettered.")
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 10 years, 10 months ago
    I don't like the airline's attitude.(At least, in my own
    case it was one particular airline). In 2005 I went
    from Va. to Minnesota to visit my (now) late father,
    and got a supposedly discount ticket--I went to the
    airport a few days ahead of time (in a cab) and those b--t--ds charged me extra for paying cash!
    I suppose, under free enterprise principles, they
    are entitled to refuse cash, but not to commit
    criminal fraud, and I think they should have
    warned me ahead of time.
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  • Posted by BrettRocketSci 10 years, 10 months ago
    Hmm, great question! And yet, wouldn't private enterprises have the right to decide how they accept payments? There isn't any case of the federal government refusing to accept cash is there? (Now that I think about it, maybe we should try that with our IRS bill!)
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 10 months ago
      First Place you nailed it! I never thought of it that way but here's the legal cite.


      "Q: Is it legal for a business in the United States to refuse cash as a form of payment?
      A: Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," states: "United States coins and currency [including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve banks and national banks] are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."
      This statute means that all United States money as identified above is a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether to accept cash unless there is a state law which says otherwise.
      SOURCE: Board of Governors, FAQs (http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/cu...)

      Notice the line that says State Law, We've run into that before on other issues.So check your own state because with airlines it's 50 for 50.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 10 months ago
      I can't even get them to cash the check for the amount due an owing which though very small has been in their possession for some time and was on time.

      Of course I have no proof of that . They don't sign for anything anymore nor did they send a bill by letter. I found out by check for an overdue refund..I'm sure they are finding which one of their employees can make the bill go up not down. or even mark it as paid.Go figure.
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