Ayn Rand, Abortion, and Planned Parenthood.

Posted by Eudaimonia 9 years, 9 months ago to Politics
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Kevin Williamson of National Review did a follow-up to his piece which I posted here yesterday.
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/...

In this current piece, again on the Planned Parenthood atrocity (my word), he takes a shot at Planned Parenthhood apologists by referencing Rand
"Why not have a Fast Freddy’s Fetal Livers Emporium and Bait Shop in every town large enough to merit a Dairy Queen? If you are having some difficulty answering that question, perhaps you should, as some famous abortion-rights advocate once put it, check your premises."

Some people have taken this line to also be an implication of Rand.
Me, I'm not sure, there's a few things I disagree with Rand on, abortion being one of them.

But, what is Rand's view on abortion?
Here is a link the entry in the Ayn Rand Lexicon.
http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/abo...

I think the most relevant portion is this.
"A piece of protoplasm has no rights—and no life in the human sense of the term. One may argue about the later stages of a pregnancy, but the essential issue concerns only the first three months."

In Rand's day, that's what abortion was.

Now, I'm no doctor, but I doubt very much that organ tissue can be harvested from a first trimester embryo.
I speculate that Planned Parenthood was harvesting exclusively from late term and even partial-birth abortions.

What Rand would say about this is also speculative, although we can infer from her words "One may argue about the later stages of a pregnancy..."

So, Objectivists, what say you?

Disclosure, my personal opinions on abortion - the human animal is a biological machine, as such it has core programming (instinctual drives). Maternal instincts are some of the most powerful any animal possesses, even stronger than Self-preservation or Species-reproduction. As such, I believe that when a woman has an abortion, regardless of the trimester, her maternal instinct kicks in at some level - automatic, unstoppable, irrevocable, unaffected by popular opinion of what abortion is supposed to be. As such, I believe that when a woman gets an abortion, she is doing deep and permanent psychological damage to herself. The existence of groups such as Silent No More lead me to suspect that my opinion is correct. What is the percentage of women who are psychologically damaged by an abortion? Who knows, and with today's Lysenko "scientists" I doubt there will be any unbiased research done. Regardless, until women who are considering an abortion first get counselling on the (what I believe) strong probability of psychological damage from the procedure, I can not be anything but against it.

This disclosure is also open for debate on this thread.


All Comments


Previous comments...   You are currently on page 7.
  • Posted by DrZarkov99 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Reference my description above: either the fetus is human, or it isn't, at a particular stage of development. "Human is human" is a meaningless statement without context, which you've dodged several times now. There is a moral hierarchy of rights and responsibilities, and simply defaulting to the right of an individual to do as he or she pleases, and ignoring any sense of responsibility, or the consequences of one's actions is a cop-out.
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  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    HA! you think that now-wait until you are MY age. you start begging for grandchildren. sigh. Just give me one. KIRA!
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Your view is not an extreme one. My older daughter is a biomedical engineering student who does not want children either.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Personally I don't find children cute and cuddly until they are several months old, but that really isn't relevant. On the autologous stem cell issue, we are in agreement.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    On that, we can agree. However, you stated earlier that there would be no psychological scarring. I doubt you would because you do not think abortion is a violation of your moral code. Many people, including many of those in this forum, Objectivist or not, are not so sure that abortion is not a violation of their moral code. It is in this lack of surety that the psychological scarring occurs. Whenever someone violates his/her moral code, one should quite reasonably feel guilty over that. If one is unsure whether one has violated his/her moral code, then that leads to the dreaded second-guessing that plagues many of those who use psychological services.
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  • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I have my view on the entire abortion discussion, but here are some definite facts.

    ALL abortions are an invasive medical procedure. This is a fact.
    Other than abortions any invasive medical procedure MUST follow specific guidelines by law, which includes to the patient full complete disclosure of all possible side effects or risks.

    Why is abortion not treated as ANY other medical procedure? Convenience and politics.

    Since an abortion IS a medical procedure, and an invasive one at that and either local anesthesia or IV sedation is used, this eve further dictates that full disclosure of every possible risk should be clearly outlined to the patient as in any other medical procedure.

    Roughly 47,000 women die every year FROM abortion complications. Another reason to enforce full disclosure and treat as any other invasive medical procedure.

    I am not advocating for or against abortion here, simply pointing out some facts, that indicate that abortions SHOULD be treated live real medical procedures, not like a McDonalds drive through at some non-medical facility where the women can get REAL medical care.

    Anything short of that IS malpractice.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Definitions DO matter. If one uses his/her own definitions instead of using definitions that are accepted by the majority of society, it is quite difficult to have a reasonable debate. It is quite easy for naysayers to reject definitions (or premises) right from the start.

    Ms. Rand's definition of life is quite acceptable for determining rights (or lack thereof) for the unborn, but it is quite inadequate from a tissue engineering standpoint. Ms. Rand did not have to consider that, because tissue engineering did not exist in her lifetime. That is no longer the case. It is for just this reason that my students are required to take a bioethics class.

    We have no disagreement regarding the last 2/3 of what you said. Ms. Rand's definitions and philosophy are quite self-consistent.
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  • -1
    Posted by woodlema 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Simple If-Then-Else logic.
    If an Eagle egg is alive and deserved protection under the law, then so must a human fetus be considered alive and receive protection under the law, else the law is inconsistent and needs to include human fetus.

    If a human Fetus is NOT alive therefore deserves no protection under the law because it has not been born, i.e. exited the womb, then an Eagle egg must also be considered not alive because it has not hatched, and deserves no protection under the law.

    See no avocation for one over the other, only bringing to light the massive inconsistency.
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  • -1
    Posted by woodlema 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Zenphamy, again I was not advocating at all one position over another, simply pointing out a massive legal inconsistency.

    So far we have seen some justification to alter the definition of life based on risk of extinction, but that has no bearing on the root definitions in reality.

    I am not advocating one way over another just spurring some thought.
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  • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I was not advocating anything. I was just bringing up and pointing out a major inconsistency.
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  • Posted by woodlema 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    jlc, but that is not the point, the quantity of a race or species in the definition.

    The definition does not change, only the justification. So again, life begins when has nothing to do with how many of a species is in existence.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I could access the tissue, but the Food and Drug Administration has guidelines for approval that preclude the use of cells not in the National Institute of Health's Embryonic Stem Cell Registry.

    http://grants.nih.gov/stem_cells/regi...

    I could develop my own stem cell line and apply for inclusion in the registry, but that is beyond the financial wherewithal of almost anyone who wouldn't suckle up to the State Science Institute for funding.
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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 9 years, 9 months ago
    It's comes down to Conscience, Those that have and those that have not.
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  • Posted by tdechaine 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It certainly does not matter that her definitions are inconsistent with yours or with anyone else.
    It matters that she is consistent within her philosophy. Her def. of life is well-developed, and no life by that def. is eliminated.

    If you are talking about any existence, we eliminate many things every day; that is not a philosophical issue.
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  • Posted by tdechaine 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You're getting off topic. An error in aborting without full knowledge of the consequences is not immoral. Abortion is moral whether one understands all the consequences or not.

    The analogy was not as you described it, but it is not worth further explanation.
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  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    While I'm at least at the viability position, I will take exception to your "clearly not when the embryo is 16 cells". Those that make the argument that human life begins at conception point to the fact that the unique genetic code for the resulting individual is set when there is only a single fertilized cell. A unique combination has been created. Whether that matters is, of course, a philosophical question, not a technical one.
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  • Posted by tdechaine 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    No dilemma - human is human! The definition is not arbitrary. Again, you don't reference the moral principle here of rights nor understand the def. of a right.
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  • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    There is a rare syndrome called "XY Females". These are women who are in every respect physically female - but they cannot get pregnant. The reason they can't is because they are genetically male (but with a malfunctioning Y chromosome). When I was working in the lab there was twice that we got back a genetic result that indicated that the reason the woman was infertile was that they were XY Syndrome. In neither case did the doctor tell the woman the truth - he just counseled them to consider adoption.

    I despised these decisions to deceive those women 'for their own good', and I agree that the patient should know everything that is available, in as reasonable a language as is possible, about their options and the ramifications of their choices.

    And if a doctor fails to do this, then sue the bastard.

    Jan, glad you got through the nuclear experience
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  • Posted by 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I do not advocate the restricting of a woman's choice in this matter.
    I do not advocate the compulsory counselling of a woman considering an abortion (the misunderstanding here was my fault as I chose the incorrect word. I have been brushing up my Latin lately and the vocabulary word consilium [advice] is used a lot. I used it without considering its other, more compulsory, meaning)
    I do not advocate any "moralistic advocacy" in the disclosure.
    I only advocate the disclosure.

    Let me give you an example of what I am talking about.
    When in my late twenties and early thirties I suffered acute adult acne.
    It was f'ing horrible.
    I went to a dermatologist and we tried a few different treatments.
    Nothing worked.
    As a last resort he suggested a drug, but he warned me that it is essentially a "nuclear bomb" [his words].
    The drug had a considerable side-effect list.
    The doctor suggested that I look over the list.
    I decided to undergo the treatment.
    While under the treatment, I became dangerously depressed and suicidal.
    This was not a listed side-effect of the drug, so I chalked it up to a really bad break up that I had currently went through, not even thinking that I don't get suicidal over break-ups.
    I finished the treatment and it successfully did away with my adult acne.

    Years later I saw a TV ad for a Class-Action Ambulance Chaser.
    They were assembling a lawsuit for people who were prescribed the drug which that dermatologist prescribed for me.
    The suit claimed that the drug induced suicidal depression.
    I can vouch my experience, you bet your ass it did, at least in me.

    I did not join the lawsuit for a few reasons:
    1) I don't like that type of lawyer
    2) The dermatologist said "nuclear bomb", that's a pretty stiff warning
    3) The treatment worked
    4) (and most importantly) The side-effect was not known at the time.

    Now, if that dermatologist had known about that side-effect, and withheld that information from me because of a fealty to a personal political ideology...

    I just might have tried to sue his f'ing ass off.
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  • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It might go as high as 10.5, but I think it will start to decrease after that point (and some argue for 9 billion). This could be changed if we develop extreme longevity, of course.

    Jan
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  • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I think you make an excellent case for my argument. People who want a child would find that lump of protoplasm cute and cuddly (well, 9 months later they would consider it cute and cuddly). But if I do not value it, then I am free to get rid of it.

    It is a trash/treasure case.

    Ultimately, autologous stem cells are going to provide the most benefit in most cases, because of the immunological problems with embryonic stem cells. Correcting genetic errors will be an exception until we get better at modifying the genome.

    Jan
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