How do Liberals/Progressives justify their approach?

Posted by Robbie53024 12 years, 7 months ago to Politics
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Given the decay of once great cities like Detroit, Chicago, Los Angeles, etc. how can the Liberals/Progressives justify their policies?
And how can the residents there not reject those failed policies?


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  • Posted by $ blarman 12 years, 7 months ago
    Ah, Robbie. You make the same mistake that all rational and reasonable people make - that the liberals are rational and reasonable people in the first place!

    Liberals never justify themselves because that would imply a foundational set of moral codes or beliefs that transcend the minute it takes them to come to a decision. Liberals lust for power above all things and they see any means as justification to obtain it regardless of how fleeting, irrational, or truly selfish (worldly definition here) their behavior is. They also refuse to look at the past and all the failures of policy because in their hubris they believe that they are more brilliant, more charismatic, and more modern than all the other leaders who have pursued the same failed policies. They persist because they believe that no matter who else has tried it - even themselves - that it can't go wrong again.

    It is my contention that there is no such thing as a reasonable, rational liberal for this reason. ;)
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    • Posted by 12 years, 7 months ago
      Don't interpret the question as ascribing rationality and reasonability to Liberals/Progressives.
      I do think that they have a moral code. It goes something like "because I feel for my fellow man, anything that I do, regardless of the consequences, must be acceptable - because I only do it because I care."
      You're absolutely right about the hubris. Look at O - never ran anything of significance, gets elected to the most powerful position in the entire world, and cocoons' himself inside a coterie of sycophants. He refuses to get any objective data or evidence to make an informed decision, because he thinks he's the smartest around.
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      • Posted by MikeJoyous 12 years, 7 months ago
        Very pleasantly put, Robbie! I put myself into Obama's mind:
        "I genuinely care for America, for all her people. The problem is that half the country want what they call 'freedom' and what I call 'anarchy.' They feel I'm ruining the country. Not so! I'm testing the moral fiber of this nation, seeing how deeply they will sacrifice for their fellow Americans!"
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      • Posted by $ blarman 12 years, 7 months ago
        I agree. I was attempting to mock liberalism in general.

        I really don't think liberals really do anything to help other people. They use "helping" as a smokescreen. If they really wanted to help people, they would look at the results of their actions and change course. Of course now _I_ am the one ascribing rationalism to liberals!

        No, what I really think happens is that liberals value the acquisition of power above all else. This then becomes the central factor in all decision-making. If they think it will increase their power, they will choose it. I think they also don't have much regard for long-term vs short-term power and tend to choose the short-term options - whether out of impatience or simple risk-avoidance I can't definitively say.
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        • Posted by 12 years, 7 months ago
          I'm with you. I really do think that most of them believe that what they are out to do is help. It's just that they focus on their feelings rather than reality. Because they feel that it's "unfair" that there is a disparity in wealth, that gives them the right and indeed the obligation to take from one and give to another.
          Power is the mechanism by which they can enact their "feelings."
          The biggest problem is that those of us of the libertarian streak have no interest in politics, as it does not appeal to us to want to "be in charge" of others. Thus, we don't seek political office and end up with the types of politicians that we have.
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          • Posted by plusaf 12 years, 7 months ago
            For quite a while, I've attributed their actions and lack of grip on reality as having basic foundations in GUILT. It's an interesting driver of emotions and actions and can be used to justify pretty much any actions, no matter how futile or useless.
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    • Posted by XenokRoy 12 years, 7 months ago
      Very well worded. I would only add this. Liberals lust for <insert item here> above all things and they see any means as justification to obtain it...

      Some want power. Some want green environments, some want to clean up plastic, some want to save the world from sin. Does not really matter what the thing they lust for is, it only matters that they want it no matter what the costs, no matter who pays the costs and no matter what else results from attempting to get that thing.

      Reason, Logic and even the idea of cause and consequence cannot exist in a mind that can see only an end goal they want, they lust after, that clouds their vision from anything other than that <insert power, wealth, environment, religion, science, freedom here>. They are simply people with blinders on to anything other than what they want at this moment, which may be power or nearly anything else.
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  • Posted by barwick11 12 years, 7 months ago
    I live near Detroit. It's comical, the Democrats there are forced to act like Conservatives.

    I've stopped being shocked every time I listen to AM 760 (which most of you can probably hear all the way to dang near the Rockies at night). They regularly interview the Mayor of Detroit, the Police Chief, Wayne County Executive, etc...

    All of them have said on more than one occasion, things you'd NEVER hear a Federal Officeholding Democrat say, things like:
    "We can't increase taxes any more on businesses"
    "We need to lower taxes on businesses to encourage them to stay"
    "Private Firearm ownership is a good means to deter crime"
    "We simply can't pay our government workers that much money"
    "The union pensions are unaffordable, we have to negotiate a change to them"
    etc...
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    • Posted by 12 years, 7 months ago
      I used to live there as well (Commerce Twp).
      Despite what they say, they don't do what they say. They merely ask for more money to be funneled to them from the state and federal governments.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 12 years, 7 months ago
    Having grown up in Detroit and being old, I can still remember the Motor City, Arsenal Of Democracy. A vibrant growing, city where work was there if you wanted it and opportunities abounded. And I was also a witness to its decay as anti business and racial politics sent the producers fleeing to the suburbs, and eventually fleeing the state. When I finally left, it was almost to the point that you had to have an armed guard in order to go to the Fisher Theater to see a traveling Broadway show.
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    • Posted by 12 years, 7 months ago
      There was a time when there were more millionaires in the city of Detroit than in New York city.
      At least the New Yorkers occasionally come to their senses. They've gone off the deep end recently, and this may well be their death knell, only time will tell.
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  • Posted by wdg3rd 12 years, 7 months ago
    I didn't realize that liberals had to justify anything. After all, they claim to be the good guys so it's us individualist libertarian curmudgeons who have to make excuses.
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  • Posted by fivedollargold 12 years, 7 months ago
    CircuitGuy is technically correct about correlational data. There are of course other factors at play besides government policy. For example, work ethic. Cross over from the heartland of Pennsylvania to New York and you go from tidy, prosperous farms and villages to a second world country of broken down trailers and little economic activity of consequence. This border area of New York would be made a booming economic area if the state government would get out of the way and let oil and gas companies lease land for fracking. Won't happen as long as Gov. Cuomo et al. are beholding to the green lobby and associated big-money benefactors.
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  • Posted by $ johnrobert2 12 years, 7 months ago
    Those receiving largesse will almost always give allegiance and support those bestowing it. Those exercising power can maintain that status simply by shoveling freebies to a grateful subclass of drones.
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    • Posted by 12 years, 7 months ago
      Or, as the ancient Greek (or was it Roman?) philosopher put it - Bread and circuses.
      But after some period of time, wouldn't you think that people would just get tired of living in squalor with no hope or prospect of a better life? How can whole swaths of society just give up?
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      • Posted by TheOldMan 12 years, 7 months ago
        No they do not tire of it. They have been brainwashed into being permanent victims of events outside of their control so there is no point in trying. To try is to make the effort and there is no reason to bother when money is handed out simply for breathing and reproducing. A baby born in Detroit is no different than one born in Palo Alto but is taught to be a victim. When the child sees three generations of females on welfare and no men around, the child learns that this is normal.
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        • Posted by 12 years, 7 months ago
          Yet they see other versions of "reality" on TV but don't seek out the means to get that other reality.
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          • Posted by TheOldMan 12 years, 7 months ago
            When you have been told since childhood that you are a victim, I think that you view TV shows as unattainable. The leap is too great and the idea that you must work your way up one step at a time is daunting. No one in your family works and yet food, shelter, entertainment is available. It is a maddening waste of human potential.
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            • Posted by 12 years, 7 months ago
              True. I seem to recall that one of the chief contributors to the downfall of the Soviet Union was western TV. They saw the lifestyles being lived in the west and compared it to how they lived and the populace rejected the way things were. What scares me is that now Russia has a bit more prosperity and the people seem to be willing to accept a new dictatorship.
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  • Posted by RonC 12 years, 7 months ago
    There is no justification needed. Only an ever expanding population of needy people. We are our brother's keeper simply because he exists. Progressives exist "for the sake of" the homeless, helpless, and needy. Never mind that progressive policies create more homeless, helpless, and needy. That fact is "prima facia" evidence that there will always be progressives with a socialist utopian world view.
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  • Posted by mckenziecalhoun 12 years, 7 months ago
    As a JFK Democrat, I can help answer that.
    We as a party were anti-civil rights at one time.
    The backlash from that caused many to leave the party, some to turn face and march in the civil rights formation (like Byrd) and others saw it as a chance to use the same party to make minorities dependent and weak.
    We turned into a party fighting for equal rights, religious freedom, freedom of the press, freedom of expression, and free speech.
    Then the Socialist Party of America stated to their international counterparts that they could not turn America. That didn't go down well with them. Forced to return to the task, they declared they would use the Democratic Party as their face to America (public knowledge, easy to look up) and would crash the economy so it could be turned to Socialism.

    They have and now they're trying to do the second thing.

    In some ways, doing a John Galt is exactly what they want. The more of you that leave, the easier it is for them to achieve their goals.
    But what is the alternative?

    I have no clue. I despise socialism and communism (helps to keep the economic and political forms clear) and watch how daily more young Democrats sell the ethics we held so dearly for a short time (freedom and equality) cheaply for a socialist agenda.

    Republican goals are important to the country.
    The original Democratic goals were as well. We wanted what was best for the country, both groups, but we had different priorities.

    Now we're facing the Democratic Socialists of America in Democratic Party clothing (check them out if you want a story - more than half of our representatives on my side of the aisle are members) leading us down...well, you can see that for yourselves.

    How do they justify them? Equality. It's a short step from the idea of equal opportunity to equality in all ways at the sacrifice of justice and responsibility.
    They simply see it as a temporary evil before they work out the problems.
    The "rich" and those who take their place are expendable for the greater good.

    We have raised a generation of "You OWE me" children. They haven't matured yet and we still coddle them.

    An exception? Hostess. Go look up their closure and reopening sans unions.

    Tough Love.
    Good luck, all. Wish I'd been more successful holding my party back from it's slide. Still trying.
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  • Posted by squareone 12 years, 7 months ago
    Liberals/Progressives first deify themselves because they "help the downtrodden." Then, since they are now God, they issue commandments preaching guilt and self - doubt and what one must do to expunge this guilt and overcome this self-doubt and self-loathing.
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  • Posted by strugatsky 12 years, 7 months ago
    How about a real simple answer -- because the liberal plebes are at the development level of a teenager. They have minimal education, regardless of the number of diplomas. The elementary education in the US is just babysitting, college is remedial high school at best and the subjects that they specialize in are just glorified basket weaving. Add to that dumbing down through TV. music and popular "culture" and you have teenagers that never grow up. Unfortunately, when that teenager is 30 years old and thinks that he knows everything, that puts him
    Into quite another category -- an idiot. Then you have the leadership that preys on the idiots.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 12 years, 7 months ago
    This is confusing correlation with causality the same way as people saying rightwing policies cause rural poverty. It's the same as people saying the "blue states" pay more in fed income taxes than "red states" because progressive policies have led to growth in the "blue states".

    I don't think gov't policy makes business grow or not grow or makes people poor or not poor. There's a whole industry dedicated to convincing people that good policies "create jobs", but it's not true.
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    • Posted by 12 years, 7 months ago
      Wow, are you ever naïve. Of course gov't policies have an impact on business growth. Where the hell have you been for the past century?
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 12 years, 7 months ago
        It's just my gut feeling from my and my wife's business and where I see value created. I have no scientific data. It will be interesting if I one day learn gov't either support or more liked stifled growth.
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        • Posted by 12 years, 7 months ago
          Well, I have looked at starting my own business for a long time and was going to do so, had the business plan and everything ready, when the economy turned south. It did so based on government policies under Bush, and have been exacerbated under Obama. Thus, in my experience, and as can be seen across the country, governmental policy has been a strong causal factor in lack of economic activity.
          Here's another one - how many people have been cut to under 30 hours/week due to the healthcare law? How many others have lost their previously provided healthcare due to the law?
          What about the EPA? How about the FDA/USDA and all the other alphabet soup gov't agencies?
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 12 years, 7 months ago
            I don't understand. You didn't execute your business plan b/c of Bush and Obama? Are you saying you believe there were customers willing to buy your goods and services at a price that would pay suppliers and workers the going rate, but it never happened b/c of something in Washington?

            In my narrow corner of the economy, mainly engineers, if some activity doesn't make financial sense b/c of healthcare costs it won't make sense even if someone magically made that go away. It might be different in high-volume mfg. In my corner of the world, though, it's absurd. PPACA actually improves labor mobility, although I believe it has no net pos nor neg effect on business.

            I have never known anyone in trouble with the EPA or other regulators. They could cause huge problems. I just haven't encountered yet. If I ever start buying solder paste by the barrel, I'll probably change my tune.
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            • Posted by 12 years, 7 months ago
              Precisely. The economic conditions changed due to political policies which resulted in the potential customer base not being willing to purchase the product.
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              • Posted by $ blarman 12 years, 7 months ago
                In business terms, these are called barriers to entry, and can originate from a variety of sources, including capital costs (think about trying to compete with Boeing or Intel), initial investment costs (similar to capital costs), intellectual property costs (think Apple or Microsoft), labor costs, trade costs (taxes, tariffs, duties, etc.), marketing costs (NFL/NBA), or the more common and vastly more numerable compliance costs (EPA regs, FDA regs, etc.)

                Of all of these, the compliance costs and trade costs are the most volatile, punitive, and subject to the next lobbyist. If you want a prime example of compliance costs and their effect on the economy, search the internet for any article talking about the costs of implementing the Affordable Care Act. You will see polls there of existing businesses that have flat out stated that because of the barriers raised by ACA, they will not be hiring full-time employees and will not be able to capitalize on growing demand for their products.

                Governmental barriers to entry are very real and can have a very long reach and should not be taken for granted.
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