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How many hypocrites do we have in the Gulch?

Posted by woodlema 10 years, 4 months ago to Philosophy
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How many of the "Atheist" Objectivists in the Gulch celebrate "Christmas" "Easter" or participate in any way Christian holidays?

If you do are you not being a bit hypocritical?

To deny and condemn Christians who believe in God as delusional and lacking reason, and yet you celebrate their holidays?

Celebrating a deity you do not believe exists?

Or do you simply justify the hypocrisy by trying to call it something else in your mind?

Didn't Shakespeare say " A Rose by any other name is still a Rose."


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  • Posted by sdesapio 10 years, 4 months ago
    [From Ayn Rand, In answer to the question of whether it is appropriate for an atheist to celebrate Christmas:]

    Yes, of course. A national holiday, in this country, cannot have an exclusively religious meaning. The secular meaning of the Christmas holiday is wider than the tenets of any particular religion: it is good will toward men—a frame of mind which is not the exclusive property (though it is supposed to be part, but is a largely unobserved part) of the Christian religion.

    The charming aspect of Christmas is the fact that it expresses good will in a cheerful, happy, benevolent, non-sacrificial way. One says: “Merry Christmas”—not “Weep and Repent.” And the good will is expressed in a material, earthly form—by giving presents to one’s friends, or by sending them cards in token of remembrance . . . .

    The best aspect of Christmas is the aspect usually decried by the mystics: the fact that Christmas has been commercialized. The gift-buying . . . stimulates an enormous outpouring of ingenuity in the creation of products devoted to a single purpose: to give men pleasure. And the street decorations put up by department stores and other institutions—the Christmas trees, the winking lights, the glittering colors—provide the city with a spectacular display, which only “commercial greed” could afford to give us. One would have to be terribly depressed to resist the wonderful gaiety of that spectacle.

    The Objectivist Calendar, Dec. 1976
    http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/chr...
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 4 months ago
      To qualify as a national Holidayi which is modern English fr Holy Day, three requirements,. Three days off in a row. Overtime for unions, Big sales where they lower the prices having raised them earlier ....there was a fourth reason but it can't remember....it got lost in the shuffle. hmmmm
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  • Posted by freedomforall 10 years, 4 months ago
    I love singing carols at Christmas time. I love getting together with friends and family during the holiday time. I tolerate beliefs of friends and family including Christmas. In the US (and some other western countries), Christmas is a retail sales event, a secular event at least as much as a sacred one .
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  • Posted by broskjold22 10 years, 4 months ago
    Here is Leonard Peikoff on a supernatural being (don't shoot the messenger):
    Every argument for God and every attribute ascribed to Him rests on a false metaphysical premise. None can survive for a moment on a correct metaphysics.

    For instance, God is infinite. Nothing can be infinite, according to the Law of Identity. Everything is what it is, and nothing else. It is limited in its qualities and in its quantity: it is this much, and no more. “Infinite” as applied to quantity does not mean “very large”: it means “larger than any specific quantity.” That means: no specific quantity—i.e., a quantity without identity. This is prohibited by the Law of Identity.

    Is God the creator of the universe? There can be no creation of something out of nothing. There is no nothing.

    Is God omnipotent? Can he do anything? Entities can act only in accordance with their natures; nothing can make them violate their natures . . .

    “God” as traditionally defined is a systematic contradiction of every valid metaphysical principle. The point is wider than just the Judeo-Christian concept of God. No argument will get you from this world to a supernatural world. No reason will lead you to a world contradicting this one. No method of inference will enable you to leap from existence to a “super-existence.”
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 4 months ago
    I would think that on a site dedicated to Objectivism and AR, we could do better than this post.
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    • -3
      Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
      Really? How can we be "True to our belief system if we do not question it regularly.

      What is YOUR identity. Do you really follow an objectivist belief system? Hence the post.

      I know a lot of devout atheists, who take great pride in celebrating the same holidays that worship and laud something they say does not exist and condemn others for believing in. Hypocrisy is part of identifying "self."

      So if A is A, and God does not exist, why on earth would one take part in the celebrations of the thing they hate so much as fraud?

      I think it is very important for one to be honest with ones self as to the true nature of their own personal beliefs by often questioning them.


      http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/ide...
      Are you seeking to know what is wrong with the world? All the disasters that have wrecked your world, came from your leaders’ attempt to evade the fact that A is A. All the secret evil you dread to face within you and all the pain you have ever endured, came from your own attempt to evade the fact that A is A. The purpose of those who taught you to evade it, was to make you forget that Man is Man.
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      • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 4 months ago
        wood; I'm an Objectivist. I don't have a belief system. I have a philosophy of knowledge, empirical evidence, rational thought, and logical reasoning.

        I work very hard to not misuse words such as 'devout' which most often relates as an adjective to religious belief. That kind of makes the term 'devout atheist' an oxymoron of the worst type. Nor words like easter which has the derivation of: ORIGIN Old English ēastre; of Germanic origin and related to German Ostern and east. According to Bede the word is derived from Ēastre, the name of a goddess associated with spring.

        Nor do I concede to christian's attempts to own the holiday called christmas.
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        • Posted by khalling 10 years, 4 months ago
          Hear, hear
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          • -1
            Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
            And there is the hypocrisy I mentioned.

            Christmas, and other Holidays celebrated by Christians, were co-opted from other religions and belief systems.

            ALL of which celebrate and recognize some form of deity.

            To "justify" celebrating IS hypocrisy especially considering all the effort that is placed on the zealous nature of those here who condemn anyone who even remotely shows a belief in a God.

            And Zenphamy, a belief system, is represented within philosophy. Definition Beleif: "1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists."

            To limit the use of the word belief in your context is incorrect, unless of course, you are saying that nothing is true and nothing exists, which makes your statement contradictory in itself.

            And you call me illogical.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 10 years, 4 months ago
    Many traditional symbols of Christmas are Pegan and/or have only the thinnest connection to Christianity. Our family celebrates solstice and related holidays as the winter holidays.
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  • Posted by Rozar 10 years, 4 months ago
    I just celebrate December 25th because my favorite number is 1225. So I go around wishing everyone a merry December 25th and give gifts to those I want to show my appreciation to.

    I tell them I don't celebrate Christmas because I'm an atheist, but they still give me gifts in return.
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    • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 10 years, 4 months ago
      I leave the 25th as a religious Holy Day (Holiday) for it's purpose and do the presents on Boxing Day on the 26th and sometimes other days. Where the young folk are concerned we have Boxing Day in July! It was great! Gifts sometimes occur at odd times and we call them Because I love you too manys days. this week it was summer passes to the swimming pool. Religion or any other form of belief system practice is for every day.
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    • Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
      And if your married, do you "exchange gifts" with your children, wife, anyone else, ever tell them merry Christmas ever?

      Do any decorations? I do not celebrate Christmas, I do not decorate, I do not say merry anything. Dec. 25 was not Jesus birth date. Period. I am Christian, but try to worship in "Spirit and Truth" and since that is NOT his birth date, it would be wrong of me to participate in it in any way.
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      • Posted by ewv 10 years, 4 months ago
        It's wrong for you to keep annoying people on an Ayn Rand site with your religious obsessions.
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        • -4
          Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
          Before you decide to take any form of "Objectivist" high ground, perhaps you should become a producer, instead of mooching and trolling and nitpicking based on your personal bigotry..
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          • Posted by ewv 10 years, 4 months ago
            This is a site for Ayn Rand's philosophy of reason. Rejecting inappropriate pushing of religion is not "bigotry", "nitpicking", "mooching" or "trolling". Advocacy and defense of reason here is fundamental.
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            • Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
              big•ot•ry
              (ˈbɪg ə tri)
              n.
              1. extreme intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.

              You are a bigot, per English definition.

              You display EXTREME intolerance, and also I might add are NOT flagged yet as a Producer in the Gulch.

              Ayn Rand categorized people into 3 classes.
              Producers, Moochers and Looters.

              Since you are not flagged as producer that only leaves one of the other categories for you.

              Those who are not producers are NOT objectivists. Just because you can rant against someone else's views does not make you an Objectivist. Just because you can use the word "reason" in a sentence also does not make one an Objectivist.

              ACTIONS!!! make one an Objectivist.

              So you can climb down off your self created high horse of hypocrisy and look in the mirror, and realize that YOU betray your proclaimed dogmatic views by NOT being a producer.
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      • Posted by SaltyDog 10 years, 4 months ago
        I think I remember reading somewhere that Christ's actual birthday was in August, calculated from historical records concerning the census decree. First or second century Christians celebrated December 25 as His birthday to counter the pagan festival of winter solstice and the tradition grew from there.
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        • Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
          3 points...

          And you can actually calculate his approximate birth 2 ways. 1 he was executed at 33 1/2 years old on Niacin 14 at sundown. Niacin 14 changed every year but calculating back to 33 ce, the actual date he was executed was, April 14th. Now if you count back 33 years 6 months, you get roughly Oct 15th give or take 15 days either way.

          The other way to calculate roughly Jesus Birth was to go by John the Baptists birth. John was 6 months older than Jesus.

          Jesus was baptized at 30 years old,  In the 15th year of the reign of Ti·beʹri·us Caesar, when Pontius Pilate was governor of Ju·deʹa, Herod was district ruler of Galʹi·lee, Philip his brother was district ruler of the country of It·u·raeʹa and Trach·o·niʹtis, and Ly·saʹni·as was district ruler of Ab·i·leʹne, 2 in the days of chief priest Anʹnas and of Caʹia·phas,

          Historian Josephus recorded much of this so we know roughly when Jesus turned 30.

          Next we know roughly when John the Baptist was born and Jesus was 6 months younger.

          None of these ways to figure out Jesus birth date takes you into December.
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  • Posted by Lucky 10 years, 4 months ago
    I am a very strict fundamentalist atheist. However, the contributions of some religious people on here, AJA particularly, often get me up-pointing.
    I do not celebrate any of those holidays. I may often join in social functions based on them, this theme has been dealt with before here- do not confuse friendship with religious observance.
    I detect the use of emotional blackmail here in trying to make that link.

    There is only one date I celebrate, 1-July, the start of the financial year!
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    • Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
      The only things I celebrate, 3 have nothing to do with religion the other is the only one commanded by Jesus.

      1) The anniversary of my Divorce of my first crazy ex-wife.

      2) The Anniversary of the marriage to my awesome 2nd wife. Been 10 years going on 11 been together 15.

      3) July 4th Americas Independence day, which I am wondering if this country even exists any more, but still..

      4) The death of Jesus on Niacin 14th. (Passover)

      Other than that. NONE!!!!
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  • Posted by broskjold22 10 years, 4 months ago
    You have convinced me that I should not celebrate Christmas. Thank you.
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    • -2
      Posted by 10 years, 4 months ago
      You're welcome. Nothing worse than a hypocrite. If you have beliefs and convictions you should stick to them period. "To thine own self be true." which is also in a way part of the Objectivist Oath. Living for yourself and not others.

      Democrats and Liberals are the biggest of hypocrites and it drives me nutz how they never practice what they preach...
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