Socialism

Posted by Kaeaea 10 years, 4 months ago to Government
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Socialism works until you run out of other people's money....short and sweet.


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  • Posted by $ Maphesdus 10 years, 4 months ago
    “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
    ― Margaret Thatcher
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  • Posted by dcwilcox 10 years, 4 months ago
    Socialism’s advance in America continues because altruism has never been rejected. Rather, it has been embraced by our culture, such as it is. Consider all of the news stories praising the “selfless” acts of people who help others. Such acts are never associated with a person’s good will toward his fellow man who might actually say “it’s so little for me and so much for him – and he shares my values – perhaps a hand up will help him achieve the success I have.” I had several people who gave me a hand up after my turbulent teen years – and they were all “greedy” Republicans, one a prominent member of the duPont family. But, they all did it AFTER I made important progress in salvaging my own life. They knew I would achieve the success I sought and they helped me get there faster. They were not altruists.

    Socialism is the politician’s siren song. Thanks to society’s embrace of altruism, politicians appeal to our “better selves” to accept their socialist schemes. Ayn Rand noted that altruism took hold in America after the Second World War. Today, we see the devastation altruism has brought to us.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 4 months ago
      Selfless acts of helping others of one's own free will are to be celebrated. Forced "altruism" which is really only theft, is to be despised.
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      • Posted by khalling 10 years, 4 months ago
        Robbie, it 's only a selfless act if they gave up doing something that was in their rational best interest. Just because it's done willingly does not necessarily make it virtuous. Ex : I donate lots of time at the soup kitchen and neglect my family as a result.
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    • Posted by jimjamesjames 10 years, 4 months ago
      There is nothing wrong with altruism as long as it it voluntary The problem arises when one person's altruism involves the theft of some other person's property with which to be altruistic.
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      • Posted by dcwilcox 10 years, 4 months ago
        You miss my point about altruism. From Merriam-Webster...

        1 unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others

        2 behavior by an animal that is not beneficial to or may be harmful to itself but that benefits others of its species

        A mother who gives her dinner to her hungry child acts out of love and the responsibility she assumed when she chose to give birth to her child. An altruistic mother would give her dinner to a stranger, leaving both her and her child hungry.
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        • Posted by jimjamesjames 10 years, 4 months ago
          1 unselfish regard for or devotion to the welfare of others

          When being "unselfish" is a choice, there is no problem. When being "altruistic" is forced, it is not altruism, it is tyranny. AR: "Never initiate force."
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          • Posted by dcwilcox 10 years, 4 months ago
            My point is about altruism, which is fundamentally unsuitable for human existence. I believe you confuse "charity" with "altruistic".

            The Salvation Army solicitor rings his bell in front of my grocery store. I slip a $5 bill in his collection pot. He says thank you and I am happy that most of my $5 will make someone's lot in life a little better. My charitable act represents my good will toward my fellow man. I really won't miss the $5. That is charity, not altruism.

            The politician appeals to his voters to raise their own taxes to help the less fortunate. If you do, fine. If you don't, the politician calls you greedy and sends the IRS to audit you. He is depending on you practicing voluntary self sacrifice. That is altruism.
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            • Posted by $ stargeezer 10 years, 4 months ago
              Hank Reardon supported his mother and brother from a misplaced sense of duty, it was not forced on him.

              When government takes resources from me and my family, redistributing to people who government thinks deserves my money more than I do, that is altruism.
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              • Posted by dcwilcox 10 years, 4 months ago
                Hank Reardon practiced altruism and it made him miserable. That's the point. Altruism, implemented as a philosophical principle, demands that you practice self-sacrifice. It can only lead to misery.

                The mother who does without food so that her hungry child won't go hungry is not altruistic. The choice to eat and let her child go hungry would be anathema to any moral mother.

                Giving her meal to a stranger while she and her child both go hungry is an altruistic, and morally reprehensible, act.

                The politician uses your own virtues against you. By appealing to voters' acceptance of altruism, he persuades them that the "moral" thing to do is to act against their own self interest.

                John Galt explains this concept pretty clearly.
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                • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 4 months ago
                  "Giving her meal to a stranger while she and her child both go hungry is an altruistic, and morally reprehensible, act."

                  Disagree, from an entirely Christian viewpoint. In the Old Testament is one of my favorite stories - the widow of Zarapheth. She is a mother of a single child in the middle of a famine. On her last supposed day (the region is in the middle of a famine), she is about to make one last meal for herself and her child before resigning herself to fate: starvation. (Note: starvation is one of the worst ways to die). Elijah the prophet asks her to make a small cake for him first, asking her to have faith. She does so and all three survive the famine when her stores of oil and meal miraculously sustain them.

                  Is her action altruism? Self-destruction? Sacrifice, yes, but in the end she benefited immensely. I would strongly caution against the outright labeling of sacrificial actions as immoral because morality must necessarily then deal with ultimate right and wrong which would then necessitate a theological debate, and Rand was unabashed in her derision of organized religion.

                  Now please do not misconstrue this to be an endorsement of the looter mentality. It is merely a check on the hardline attitude I see prevalently here on this board which focuses so much on decrying altruism as an unmitigated evil. I echo other comments that say that fraud and deceit used to justify the taking of means from some to give to others is absolutely wrong. But to say that the willful sacrifice of one's goods/means to another is evil is to decry love for one's fellow man as evil: that selfishness should reign as the supreme motivation and ruling cause. If one wants to argue that the motivation for giving is as important as the giving itself, one can not deny that one must walk a line between sacrifice and selfishness - both extremes can lead to adverse outcomes.

                  Does this mean we should grant politicians the ability to tax and distribute welfare? I echo dcwilcox when unequivocally, I say NO. Such again is the product of deceit and fraud. But to label private charity in that category is simply unwarranted from a moral standpoint that allows all to participate in the market of ideas. If you choose to give to another out of charity or desire to help that person - regardless how the beneficiary then uses it - the judgement of the value of that act is for that person (and their god of choice) to determine and not for us to place an arbitrary value on (especially a value of zero). If the beneficiary goes on to waste the gift, can we then label that individual as foolish and unappreciative? Absolutely, and rightly so. Would it be justified to refuse to grant an unappreciative recipient further gifts? Sure. But I would strongly caution against labeling the initial gift a morally reprehensible thing lest you fall into a moral trap of your own device.
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      • Posted by MikeJoyous 10 years, 4 months ago
        Hi Jim:) I think it's important here to distinguish between giving out of love and giving out of moral duty. According to Dr. George Weinberg as well as Nathaniel Branden, if we act upon a specific emotion, we increase the intensity or the durability of that emotion within our psyches. Thus if I help you because I value you, then my warmth towards you increases and my sense of being loyal to my values also increases. If, alternatively, I help you out of fear of divine retribution or social disapproval, then it is fear that is increased within my psyche, fear of God or of my neighbors. Once one accepts that it is right and proper to be fearful or God or one's neighbors, one becomes loyal over time to one's fear-developed values. That loyalty to one's fear-originated values is "altruism." A traditional behaviorist who just observes external actions with no reference to one's motivations might think there is no difference between altruism and loving charity. The psychologist who observes external behavior and *unites* it with his observations of how his own motivations changes in response to changing behaviors (that is what "reason" is about in this domain--the *integration* of feeling with behavior) knows it is, literally, the difference between life and death!
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        • Posted by jimjamesjames 10 years, 4 months ago
          I appreciate the elucidation but, with no offense intended, I think the discourse of the differences among the motivations for altruism, charity, the moral imperative (if there is one), etc., begs the question: Is force initiated in the name of altruism or any other imperative? I was not born into this world to be altruistic or benevolent at the whim or whip of someone else. If force is initiated, it is not altruism, charity, benevolence, goodness, or morality, regardless of the intended outcome. I recently gave $1000 to a friend to help finance a titanium wheelchair. He has severe diabetes. Was that altruistic? I don't know and I don't care. All I know is that I made a personal choice without interference from anyone or anything, free from any force except that imposed on myself by myself. If a "guilt complex" or "social contract" or "moral imperative" urges someone to "give," that is their choice, no one else's.

          Again, there is nothing wrong with altruism unless it is the rationale for the use of force.
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          • Posted by MikeJoyous 10 years, 4 months ago
            Hi Jim:) I can't comment on whether or not your gift to a friend was "altruism." It would depend on how good a friend he is, and how good your financial situation is. I can comment on the importance of motivation, not just on the use of physical force. If I give from love and caring, my love and caring are affirmed. If I give from fear of disapproval, then my fear and maybe hatred are affirmed. We are talking about the difference between life and death, Jim, and that is the *core* of morality, as I understand it. If I choose voluntarily a form of suicide by giving to others while neglecting myself, would you consider that ethical? I'm not talking about a "lifeboat" situation where I have a painful disease, no hope of overcoming it, and my only honest option is to end it all by suicide. I'm talking about the day to day dribbling out of one's life energies by feeling less and less like a human being because one sacrifices one's life to folks one does not deeply care about at the expense of one's own life.
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            • Posted by jimjamesjames 10 years, 4 months ago
              Again,Mike, my issue is choice: forced by exogenous forces or from internal morality --whether rational or some warped sense of obligation. After that distinction is made, the discourse can take many directions. But I'm only going to assess whether force is initiated. If it is, there is something wrong; it is is not, there's no issue for me to discuss.
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              • Posted by MikeJoyous 10 years, 4 months ago
                Hi Jim, I hate to fall back upon the Voice of Authority, but in a way, Rand's work goes way beyond the use of force. Look at the Fountainhead, Jim. Does Toohey use force? Wynand? Yet the book clearly says that their actions were immoral. Look at Atlas Shrugged and the way Jim Taggart entered the scene with, "Don bother me, don't bother me." There is no physical force used, but there is something cleearly wrong with his character, in the sense of immoral! What thinkest? Best always, Mike
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                • Posted by jimjamesjames 10 years, 4 months ago
                  Let me add, Mike, that when I preach "Never initiate force" I add "or fraud."

                  Toohey and Jim Taggart (and all collectivists) initiate fraud against individuals, in the name of the collective, when they promote the sacrifice of an individual's value (Roark or Reardon or Dagny). AR crystallized a lot in my mind when she elucidated the "sanction of the victim" concept. Going back to the motivation for one's choice, it is not within my purview, literally or figuratively, to influence anyone's choice to be a victim. Atlas shrugged to stop being a victim. I would wager you and I could spend hours listing people that made bad choices for good reasons ("to help the children") and suffered for it (and, unfortunately, made others suffer for their folly).

                  As some forgotten psychologist said, "All behavior is motivated." I find it tedious (I am 70+) these days to quibble over motivations when it is the outcome that affects a person's quality of life. Tom Sowell said don't measure intentions, measure out comes. Simplifies life, if you ask me.
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                  • Posted by MikeJoyous 10 years, 4 months ago
                    Hi Jim:)
                    I didn't know you were in your 70s. I'm 68 myself:)About the worth of knowing about motivations, oy veh, amigo. If you choose to try out my releasing workshop in about a month, I suspect you'll find that out in a week or two:) Looking at things somewhat more towards a Randian perspective (though when I talked with Dr. Weinberg over the phone, he told me he didn't agree with Branden's advocating of Objectivism, even though he admired the theoretical structure that Branden wove in "The Psychology of Self-Esteem") I'd like to suggest that you check out Weinberg's book "Self-Creation." Weinberg clearly shows why it is important to know one's motivation as well as look at one's external behaviors if one wishes to change the way one feels inside. You can try out his ideas of habit change in your own life, as I have--though I admit that it all goes down better when seasoned with my proposed teaching of "releasing.":) Back to Atlas, I don't see Jim Taggart as terribly fraudulent to others. He lied to himself and was a model of irresponsibility but he neither used force nor fraud most of the time in his tenure as head of TT. I except the way he attacked Dan Conway's railroad to get a monopoly on carrying oil for Wyatt! About the sanction of the victim, to me, Jim, the issue is, once you see the philosophy of not being a victim, *how* do you stop it within yourself. And then, amigo, we turn to psychology:)
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                    • Posted by jimjamesjames 10 years, 4 months ago
                      My assessment of Jim Taggart is that he was not evil, simply a weak-willed dupe. As to digging into one's psyche to affect change, I was a director in a state mental hospital a few years ago and also did child abuse investigations for 15 years. One fact that I realized is that "The gates of change are unlocked from the inside." After enough experience trying to "change" some bad thinking for so long, it got to the point where the law of diminishing returns reared it's ugly (but truthful) head and one realizes that we can play the semantic games, play the "why" games and rarely get to the answer. Many times, the answer for why someone does something is not knowable by either me or the other person unless and until they can accept facts, not feelings, as a starting point. Many times I confirmed it is better to start a conversation with "What do you think..." rather than "How do you feel." As a character in my novel, Paris, Wyoming ( http://www.amazon.com/Paris-Wyoming-Jim-... ), says, “One of the many burdens of age, my friend, is to make sense of the happenings that make our lives interesting.”
                      Jack smiled. “Which you’ve told me six or seven hundred times.”
                      “Oui. I’ve found that I can’t answer many of those questions so I ask them. It’s my contribution to epistemology."
                      Keep us posted on your workshop......
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                      • Posted by MikeJoyous 10 years, 4 months ago
                        Hi Jim:) I agree that just asking Why doesn't help too much. The trick is to use one's intuition to suggest an action change, perhaps a habit change, and then watch what pops up as a result. When you remove a defense, the feelings and thoughts hiding behind the defense become known, Jim. That leads you to the next thoughts and feelings and the next action to experiment with changing. That is in the realm of therapy, which is not what I will be teaching. At least not for the present. My workshop to be centers on an ability that most folks do not know they have: the ability to let go of a problem, an attitude, or a feeling. I'm not talking about abandoning one's intention to better a situation, but rather of giving up the overpush that so often occurs when one *wants* something to happen. That overpush makes it hard to see the forest for the trees, as well as hiding a bundle of feelings and thoughts.Giving up on the overpush is relatively easy to do. It can be hard and can involve experimentation and digging deep into one's feelings, but I have done this sometimes in the space of minutes, sometimes within hours, and sometimes within weeks. I looked at the sample of your book, Jim. I don't feel I understand it as yet, probably because I had to look at it briefly and quickly. I'd certainly like to check it out further. I have rewritten Shakespeare's "Julius Caesar" recently myself. I maintain poetic flow while clarifying many parts of it. The result is that when I read parts of it to others, they always seem to brighten up. Finally they understand what the Bard was trying to say! I have some notions of rewriting a number of the plays making very clear not just his obscure language at times, but also the rules of living that he discovered and inserted into his plays. Jim, what is this rule of epistemology that you've discovered? I'll let you know when the workshop comes, amigo. Mike
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                        • Posted by jimjamesjames 10 years, 4 months ago
                          Just a note, Mike, that my novel is not in the same vein as Eudaimonia's. Just a simple story of a man that is going to die and the choices he has to make to give his life... and death.... some meaning.
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                      • Posted by khalling 10 years, 4 months ago
                        Eudaimonia has a post where he compiles writers from the gulch jim. consider posting your novel there and doing a general post on the book. Lots of readers in here. Thanks
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      • Posted by SpiritMatter 10 years, 4 months ago
        You hit the nail on the head. Altruism, socialism, individualism, etc. are all social relationship constructs that have no significant meaning to an individual living alone on an island. As soon as you add one or more humans, these ideas become relevant. The fundamental issue for all social issues is, are all humans endowed with equal rights or do some have superior rights. Superior rights is always related to tyranny. Equal rights prevents tyranny. Equal rights requires the consent of all in a group/society. Socialism can range from full tyranny where all decisions are made for all individuals by the rulers (an individual dictator/king, an elite, a majority) without consent of those with inferior non-ruler rights, to full individual equal rights where only consenting individuals proceed to a particular course of action. I support the principle of equal rights where no one has the superior right to force their way on their neighbor and all have the right to defend their rights with what ever defensive force is necessary. If someone wants to speak a language that no one else understands, he/she should have that right but no right to force others to understand and speak it. This will make personal and free market buyer/seller relationships almost impossible but that is their right. Socialism with full consent can be good but without consent is evil and tyrannical no matter how altruistic it may be. 2 ".....yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. (Joh 16:2 NKJ). The Christ was killed because he refused to submit to the tyrannical social commandments of the religious establishment of his day.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 4 months ago
      Good for you. I also made something better of myself, though it was me pulling myself up by my own bootstraps. Hasn't made me jaded about helping others just because I wasn't helped.
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  • Posted by salta 10 years, 4 months ago
    Long time ago I heard a definition of good poetry...
    It generates the most complex mental images, using the smallest number of words.

    For some reason that is where my mind drifted, when I saw the number of comments on this elegantly succinct post.
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  • Posted by $ Stormi 10 years, 4 months ago
    First, socialism rarely stops there, it progresses to something even more controlling. Socialism does not work, period.
    As to altruism, it is evil. In some cases it makes the giver in vogue for the fleeting moment, and he feels good. He is looking to the approval of others, in other words. Bad. Then there is the recipient, who is rarely actually helped to become independent. Is not the goal for man to be responsible and think with reason? Is that not what benefits the rational society? Most altruism leads to control of the recipient, and to a lesser degree, control of the giver. Some elite somewhere is going to profit from it all. If the recipient learns to expect the gift, he has been weakened and not helped to stand and become independently self-sufficient. All members of the society are harmed. My husband's Kiwanis club sponsors a "Cribs for Kids" program, given to, usually single teen moms-to-be. It raises my hackles, as the cribs must be new and unused, they are not returned, and rarely is thanks given. The program has grown to the point of being the go-to program. To me, that is altruism run amok. When I was a reporter, they asked me to join, and I had to say, "I do not do altruism." The same group's scholarship fund seems like altruism, but it leads to one becoming educated, and I have not decided how that fits in. That one, at least is earned via grades point average.It seems one programs contributes to lessening the responsibility of a human, while the second should contribute to the growth of a human. That is the micro version of what we are seeing in our ever increasingly socialist US.
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  • Posted by TexanSolar 10 years, 4 months ago
    We have already passed that point. The Feds are temporarily propping up the economy by printing more money. There appears to be no interest in a balanced budget. Where will it all end?
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    • Posted by j_IR1776wg 10 years, 4 months ago
      "Where does it all end?" Civil War, Military Dictatorship, the dissolution of the Union. The future is becoming clearer daily now and it doesn't look pretty or peaceful.
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      • Posted by UncommonSense 10 years, 4 months ago
        While those reasons are certainly good ones to be concerned about, keep in mind the motto of one of my favorite sites, Zero Hedge.com: "On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero." Yes, this even includes the wonderful Global Banking Elites. They stand to gain all from our death/destruction/dissolution/ etc. But for all their temporary power, they CANNOT outlive MORTALITY. >:D

        Meanwhile, in my household...watching the AFC Championship...and "The future is so bright, gotta wear shades."
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        • Posted by j_IR1776wg 10 years, 4 months ago
          :-) 16 points and 7 minutes looks a lot better than the reverse.

          However, the bankers have had a 100 year run stealing our wealth. So they are capable of passing on their thieving DNA.
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    • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 10 years, 4 months ago
      "War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength." - George Orwell
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 4 months ago
        OA: Glad to see you posting. Yes, 1984, Animal Farm, and AS all becoming reality.
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        • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 10 years, 4 months ago
          Likewise Robbie53024. So true it is frightening. I do not know what to think anymore. Can it ever be reversed? Must we suffer a complete breakdown and a dystopian nightmare before sheople wake up? Never before has there been a greater need for a gulch to retreat to, or so few places left on earth to escape... I do see some people waking up... will it be enough or will the masses just shoulder more?
          Regards,
          O.A.
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          • Posted by TexanSolar 10 years, 4 months ago
            I am not confident that it can be reversed. I believe economic collapse is eminent. Where will you be when the Grid goes down. Off-Grid, I hope.
            My solar collector design, the Bradford Collector, will economically provide all of the energy and water requirements of an Off-Grid Home or community. Manufacturing Bradford Collectors and associated systems, and operations and maintenance will provide many jobs for the community.
            But, importantly, it will be possible to comfortably survive the coming Great Depression.
            Please visit offgridtexan.net for more info
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            • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 10 years, 4 months ago
              Hello TexanSolar,
              I know how you feel.

              I like your approach to solar. Everyone that can do it when it makes economic sense and their environment they live in provides adequate sun power should consider it. Having the power companies set up solar and wind etc. systems still leaves one at the mercy of the cronies. Independent systems have much potential. I live in Michigan and we have a miserable amount of sunny days so it doesn't provide a quick ROI, but combined with a wind turbine and other energy saving measures there is still potential for those desiring that independence. I'm afraid your link only displays the first page for me. Perhaps I have something blocking more functionality... Anyway I regularly vacation in the Florida keys on an Island that uses solar. It is off grid and provides all the necessities. I am all for the freedom, independence and technology aspects of these systems. I am not for government mandates and taxpayer forced investments.
              Best of success in your endeavors,
              O.A.
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  • Posted by m082844 10 years, 4 months ago
    I suppose it depends on what you mean by working. If it is creating an environment best suited for man's flurishment qua man, then it never works.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 4 months ago
    And how many lose everything they have and or starve in the process?
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    • Posted by mminnick 10 years, 4 months ago
      Ask the Ukrainians. Millions died when stalin collectivized the farms in the 30's.
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      • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 4 months ago
        Add Mao's 65 million, Stalin's 25 million, Hitler's 6 to 10 million, before you know it you're talking some big numbers.
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        • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 4 months ago
          That's 6-10 million Jews. The total deaths in the camps was between 18-21 million.
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          • Posted by hoghead44 10 years, 4 months ago
            As a son of Holocaust survivors the official figure is 6 million of us and 6 million gypsies and other undesirable individuals that were not Arian. However, as Zenphamy said, it is still too many. Hold on though, we might be misfortunate to experience it here
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            • Posted by Hiraghm 10 years, 4 months ago
              okay... and the other 6 to 9 million who died in the camps? Car accidents?
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              • Posted by hoghead44 10 years, 4 months ago
                Some were starved in portions of cities and others shot on the spot but for the most part the camps for those that did not resist. Are you making fun of this with your remark about car accidents? That seems insensitive at the best. I lost 18 of my family and everyone on my paternal side other than my father. I have been searching for years trying to find information on them but to no avail.

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                • Posted by $ Hiraghm 10 years, 4 months ago
                  I'm making fun of the suggestion that the victims who died in the camps were divided between Jews and Gypsies. Political dissidents, people with something someone in power wanted, people in the wrong place at the wrong time *also* died in the camps.

                  Yes, it was terrible that the Jews were targeted for being Jews. But they were roughly 1/3rd of those who died in the camps, and I don't think it right to forget about the rest who died.
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          • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 4 months ago
            Still too many.
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            • Posted by RonC 10 years, 4 months ago
              When your economic model requires that a large fraction of your population must cease to exist to afford minimum needs to the people, you have a lousy model. From the beginning of the American Progressive movement, proponents like George Bernard Shaw have admitted or even insisted that those who will not go along must be dealt with.

              They say it can't happen here, whoever they are. Even without an organized Army, when we get hungry or pressed beyond our limit, how many of our own can we kill?

              Conspiracy theorists point to those plastic coffins in Texas as a harbinger of what's coming. In the history of genocide no unwanted population has ever been laid to rest in a coffin. A trench is all the unwanted receive. Those coffins ore for the anticipated losses on the government side.
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              • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 4 months ago
                The American military will never fire on it's own populace. DHS gestapo, on the other hand, will have no problem in doing so. The real question is whether the military leadership will have the stones to prevent it. Having served there (and still have a number of classmates who are in senior Army leadership), my guess is no. Sr military are too indoctrinated to think for themselves.
                I recently had the opportunity to hear Gen Dempsey speak about character to the Air Force Academy cadets. What a joke. This is the man who failed to protect our civilians in Benghazi, and continues to fail to tell the truth about what happened and the cause of the failure to protect them. That's the type of character you can expect from our Sr military leaders. And I'm ashamed to call him a fellow member of the Long Grey Line.
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                • Posted by MattFranke 10 years, 4 months ago
                  May is suggest you check your facts about them not firing on citizens. Please research the 'Twenty-nine Palms Survey'
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                  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 4 months ago
                    total foolishness. Since you don't seem to have any first hand military experience, I suggest that you defer to those of us that do.
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                    • Posted by MattFranke 10 years, 4 months ago
                      What is total foolishness is your presumption that it could never happen here, when it very well could.
                      Also, you have no clue about any of my experiences, military or otherwise.
                      You may keep your assumptions of me to yourself, and I will defer to you, nothing.
                      Good day.
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                      • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 4 months ago
                        My apologies - thought that I was conversing with Hiraghm. No, I have no indication of your experiences. However, I do have some understanding of the caliber of the volunteer army soldier and what they would/would not do (regardless of the twenty nine palms survey - and those are Marines, whom I admire but have less confidence in their mental stability).
                        On the other hand, as I said, the gestapo that makes up the components of the DHS will have no problem firing on fellow citizens. It comes from the basic character of the individual.
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                        • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 4 months ago
                          Which is why our dear leader wants to arm the IRS and wanted to create a civilian military that reported to only him.

                          I know members of the Armed Services and I echo Robbie in saying that you would see a mass mutiny in the ranks if they were ordered to fire on their own citizens. They would gladly lay down their lives in defense of our nation and I salute them for that.
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                    • Posted by khalling 10 years, 4 months ago
                      I know you are referring this comment to hiraghm, robbie- but as much as I admire and respect member of the military-I rarely defer without ample evidence.Please give us some facts so we can discern ourselves.
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                      • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 4 months ago
                        Have you had contact with any members of the military? Not the Sr Officers (I know several and wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them), but the rank and file - mid career NCO's and other junior enlisted. The Seals of Lone Survivor are good examples. All you have to do is speak with them and you will understand.
                        Now, as I have said several times, the gestapo in the DHS, I have found, will have no such restrictions.
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                        • Posted by $ EloiseH 10 years, 4 months ago
                          Robbie, I believe you are completely correct. My late husband was an Air Force veteran and I know those enlistees did not check their morals when they enlisted. Nor have more recent enlistees. I would trust their integrity and their moral compass implicitly.
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                        • Posted by khalling 10 years, 4 months ago
                          again-this is vague. I am not challenging your premise, I would just like it articulated please
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                          • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 4 months ago
                            I don't know how much more clear that I can make this. Junior military (enlisted and jr to mid-level NCO's) will disobey orders to fire on fellow citizens should that ever come to pass. Sr. officers might actually give those orders, since their integrity has been compromised by their masters.
                            That, and any Sr Officer of any integrity has recently been culled from the ranks. This gives me an indication that the attempted take over should be anticipated within the next 3 yrs.
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