I have a friend whose entire office caught bronchitis, after one of them brought it back from an overseas vacation.

If not vaccinating becomes a popular choice, offices and other places people gather may need to adopt their own policies requiring vaccination, and someone will have to develop tests to catch cheaters. This leads to other questions including liability (of individuals and of facilities). These are hard enough problems that "cutting the Gordian knot" by mandating vaccination has some appeal, even if I'd rather we not do it.

WS... do you know if the WHO and/or CDC are implementing any kind of monitoring of social media to detect outbreaks of anything from measles to flu to polio to cancer?

It struck me that even an anonymous-but-voluntary process that logged only the illness and the zip code might help in tracking causes and spread of a plethora of maladies.

Any input on that?

... and more and more, one of the mandated options you CAN'T sign up for is detailed genetic testing to find out if you, yourself might have some obscure and nasty reaction to some chemical, food or medicine, either!

They gotcha comin' and goin'....

My own experiences in this realm are so strange - the timing so perfect to learn what I have - it's surreal. I know so much that I can't divulge. It's been an amazing trip! Here's a hint...almost nobody on any internet forum is even close to the knowledge necessary to solve this one. It makes me laugh, sometimes. This issue of childhood vaccines is very, very big. It's pivotal. And, it's going to get bigger.

Until your own child has an adverse reaction. Then, you have no legal recourse because our government will not let citizens sue vaccine manufacturers. Ask me how I know...

I appreciate your comnent.

Buddy, there are things I could tell you over a beer on this that would blow your mind.

I have never stated that I support the proposed law. I don't, it goes beyond anything I am comfortable with.

That does not mean we can't discuss vaccinations.

And, yes, since a vaccine will trigger someone's immune system there is a risk that the person will have an atypical reaction. Nothing is completely safe, it is, however, safer than going without.

Exactly. That's my prediction. Look...I know several here have said that they'd never do this to private schools or adults. I think you guys need to get caught up on this. This isn't just going to be for other people's kids. That's why I want to know what we all think about the force aspect. Do you now decide to skip the flu shot? Well, that's already in the SB277 schedule. Tetanus? In there (pretty much eradicated with the automobile). Mumps? There. Haha...mumps.

How do we REALLY feel about forcing people to get medical treatment? For or against? Not "ok public school, not ok private school". That's not the case according to the text of the law and according to the numerous committees it's been through.

6' x 6' x 10'. (Just came back inside to get phillips screwdriver and some cold tea.) It costs about $230 at Home Depot, but that was the 'best deal' I could find for that amount of space after some months of searching (inc. Craig's list).

I have a lot of problems with coyotes eating my chickens. I figure that a fence that is designed to keep Fido in will probably keep Coyote out.

It is warm outside today. The run looks quite sturdy, though, and I am pleased (thus far).

Jan

Private schools must comply with this law when it is passed. I know that sounds unusual. But, I think it is due to influence of the CTA here in California. The last thing they want is to lose even more kids to private schools.

Well William..you are going off the premise that vaccines haven't harmed people. That's why I was confused. And, private schools will have to comply with full, mandatory vaccination. I've read the bill. Surprising?

When were you in grade school? Have you looked at the CDC schedule lately (say, vs 1985)?

Prefab dog run? How high is it?

We are about to build a double fence 4’ high and 4’ apart as a deer jumping barrier and to double as a chicken, or domestic quail, run.

Thanks: I've been neglecting the weeding.

So the big thing in 'vactruth' -- obviously a site designed to generate fear rather than analysis. ('truth' -- implies that there are lies about vaccines) is that we give more vaccines to kids than we used to. That is a big DUH! Of course we give more vaccines because we HAVE more vaccines. We give more antibiotics because we HAVE more we can give, we have medical procedures that we didn't used to have. This is called progress. No one wants to live with 1950's medicine.

The healthimpact news starts with a false statement and then triumphantly tries to disprove it as if it is revealing a hidden truth. The false statement is that if vaccines 'really' worked, they would protect you and you couldn't get the disease.

As Jan has pointed out in technical detail, vaccines do not, in themselves, prevent you from getting the disease. That's a gross simplification. What they do is expose your own immune system to the aspects of the disease so that it can prepare a response. The immune system learns to deal with diseases when it encounters them. Normally it starts preparing to fight the disease while the disease is progressing through your body. If it catches up, you're cured, if not, you can die.

By exposing your immune system to aspects of the disease ahead of time, it can be prepared to face a future encounter with the real thing. By being prepared you are much more likely to defend against it, but it's not an absolute guarantee -- so you would rather not be surrounded by people carrying the disease.

GHBs jan! I feel like I have to pay for reading this comment!

No, I will refrain from following up. Please excuse that I am not up to further research at the moment, but I have spent several hours of this morning doing interesting research on vaccines instead of assembling a dog run to use as a chicken coop.

Perhaps later, I can come back and chime in further.

Jan

Jan: thanks for the detailed reply.

If your up to it, what about the claims in these two links?

http://vactruth.com/history-of-vaccine-s...

http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/the-her...

Certainly, PeterAsher. I am glad to comment. Since it is a multi-paragraph letter, I will prefix my remarks with "Comment" below each paragraph.

“Governor Brown, I’m sure you recognize that children today are subject to no less than 3 times as many vaccines as the previous generation. Parents today are facing a much more significant question about vaccines than parents 30 years ago were facing."
Comment: We did not have these some of these vaccines a generation ago; the ones we did have, generally were required. Hep B vaccine was developed in the 1980's, but was used amongst risk populations (hospital workers; IV drug users) at first. This vaccine also protects against liver cancer, since 80% of the liver cancer is due to Hep B. Measles vaccine was put into general use in the 1970's; it resulted in a decrease from >700,000 cases per year to about 600 cases per year in the US. (Remember the death rate from measles is about 135/million.) Rotavirus vaccine is a recent addition - probably ~ 2010. It reduces by 50% the death rate for rotavirus diahorreal gastroenteritis.

"Something is broken, Governor Brown. Our children have never been sicker, and our requirement for vaccines has never been higher. I understand correlation doesn’t equal causation, but please point me to a study that shows the benefit of heavy metal exposure on the human body. Children in the U.S. are fraught with auto-immune diseases, deadly allergies, asthma, eczema, perpetual ear infections, and childhood cancers. Autism rates are staggeringly high (1 in 68)."
Comment: This paragraph conflates several different concepts into one emotional plea. The perceived ill health and allergies of our current generation of children is arguably more closely related to their hygienic upbringing (yes, that is what I meant to say) than to the presence of vaccines in their lives. It is also something of an illusion because 'routine death' of children has been replaced by 'allergies'. I know of no study that indicates that Thimerosal relates to autism. Asking for proof that heavy metals cause health is disingenuous at best, irrational at worst. She is probably right that 'something is broken' but the 'something' is probably not vaccines.

"According to the CDC, our infant mortality rate is higher than any of the other 27 first world countries! This wasn’t the case 30 years ago. Don’t you think we should figure out what is happening to our babies? I personally know four people that have lost their baby to SIDS. Is that normal?”
Comment: Again, an irrational and emotional plea. One of the benefits of capitalism is that it has genuinely and spontaneously raised the standard of living in poor countries at a faster rate than it has raised it in developed countries. This is not to say that our standard of living has not improved, but that the standards of living of poor people have improved dramatically - including their health care. The main factor in the poor rating of the US in terms of neonatal deaths is that the US experiences almost double the rates of pre-term delivery as the countries with the best statistics. If you correct for that factor, the the US doctors are just as good at taking care of a baby of a specific age of gestation and birth weight as anywhere else in the world. So the question becomes: why are women in the US so prone to pre-term deliveries? I do not know the answer, but I doubt that it is due to vaccines because many countries with low neonate death rates also require vaccinations: Singapore's vaccination list looks a lot like ours, and they have the lowest neonatal death rate in the world.

Jan

Jan: could you comment on the letter bellow. It is a good synopsis of the viewpoint of those who IMO, are being objective about this

“One mother, Caitlan Sullivan, has become so concerned about her rights as a parent being taken away that she has made her views on the subject abundantly clear in a letter she wrote to California Governor Jerry Brown:


“Governor Brown, I’m sure you recognize that children today are subject to no less than 3 times as many vaccines as the previous generation. Parents today are facing a much more significant question about vaccines than parents 30 years ago were facing.

Something is broken, Governor Brown. Our children have never been sicker, and our requirement for vaccines has never been higher. I understand correlation doesn’t equal causation, but please point me to a study that shows the benefit of heavy metal exposure on the human body. Children in the U.S. are fraught with auto-immune diseases, deadly allergies, asthma, eczema, perpetual ear infections, and childhood cancers. Autism rates are staggeringly high (1 in 68).

According to the CDC, our infant mortality rate is higher than any of the other 27 first world countries! This wasn’t the case 30 years ago. Don’t you think we should figure out what is happening to our babies? I personally know four people that have lost their baby to SIDS. Is that normal?” (sic)

The fist /nose comment is an ethical test. The test in this case applies to anti -vac crowd not vaccinating allowing strains of diseases to become virulent. Just because you vaccinated doesn 't mean you are not still exposed. The disease over time and exposure fan change adapting to those vaccinated and getting a foothold. That 's why you want as many as possible covered. Tuberculosis is once again on the rise in LA. It had been eradicated in the US.

Termination of your social security payments if you don't comply. That will get almost all those over 62. Never mind that it's your money that you paid to support yourself after retirement. Let's get rid of pesky cash, too. Serfs can be so tiring with their quaint religious beliefs in rights and liberty.

I don't think it's just a matter of liability. In theory, and I can't see Disney trying to enforce vaccination, Disney might find it a marketing strategy to say that they check vaccinations to assure their guests a safe environment.

As you can see from my Very Long post above, I do not think the gov has a right to include private institutions in this decree. I think that pretty much everyone on this list agrees that CPS is among those public 'alphabet' institutions that should be abolished; some of the work they do is laudable, such as in cases of extreme abuse, but that those cases also represent 'breaking the law' and can be taken over by other LE agencies; the niche that CPS has to itself is taking children away from parents who are NOT breaking the law. As a result I expect that there will be few people who debate that CPS should be able to do this, or that private schools and home schools should be included in the requirement for vaccinations.

The concept that there will be a federal law that requires vaccinations for adults is interesting, but pretty speculative.

I think that the center point of the discussion is whether the State has the right to require vaccinations for public schools. I think they do, but only if this issue has been voted on and passed by the people.

I keep needing to remind myself to separate my emotional response to being forced to do something (even something I like, such as eat chocolate chip cookies) that I would do voluntarily vs the logic of whether the basic decision to get vaccinations is good. (I do tend to have a button push when someone makes me do something. Or tries to.)

Jan