my reference is to the book (haven't seen the movie,
yet) -- and criticism of Rand in things like this:::

http://www.cracked.com/funny-304-ayn-ran...

it pissed me off. -- j
.

Ed, I began with this from a reference in this flow
chart, plus other criticism which I'd heard:::

http://www.cracked.com/funny-304-ayn-ran...

it hung with me and annoyed me. -- j
.

More seriously, though, it's pertinent that the topic of sex should come up on this forum. Through history, one of the most effective tools of tyrants and despots has been to inflict control over people's sexual expression.

The churches excel particularly at this, by holding the body as a whole, with all its desires, to be sinful. Cultures which practise arranged marriages are almost as bad, because they violate people's mating preferences. History shows that the more you can dampen people's sexual expression, the easier it becomes to control them.

It's a reflection on our society today that people throw around the 'R'-word whenever they see strong individuals in AR's novels celebrating their lives and their passions with carnal connection.

Except the PC mob would call that "Stockholm Syndrome" and tear her away for de-conditioning :O

According to the statutes in California and however many other states, Galt is a rapist because he didn't get explicit verbal permission before the act, and didn't keep getting verbal permission during. This means 7-20 years in the slammer, then an lifetime on the sex offender registry. He must never go near schools, or own businesses dealing with children, and must always notify the residents of any community he moves in to. I guess the Gulch will learn of his wicked ways. Meanwhile, Dagny will have to attend a series of women's empowerment workshops at the local rape crisis centre. :P

Man-hating feminazis see rape everywhere.

Rape? If that was rape then the actor that played Galt raped the producer of the movie with his pathetic performance. The actress that played Dagny was just as guilty.
I feel so used. Waaahhhhh!

Calm down, man. This is not a PC feminist site, and we can actually talk here rather than just rant at each other.

I am quite in favor of men's lib, and am aware of the feminization of our culture. This is not a good thing. But it was not a good thing 50 years ago when women were fit into a tiny niche and expected to stay there, either.

We are going to have some pendulum swings before we settle into a balance of the sexes - and I think that is still a few generations in the future. It is difficult for women to get over being second class citizens - for millennia. We have, as a gender, gone waaay overboard and tried to make our society over in a feminine image. This is bad.

But if you think about it, there are worse things: Accompanying the feminization of society is the socialization of society. This is what this site is about: reversing socialism (in a particular manner). I do not think that it is just chance that feminization and socialism are going hand-in-hand: women have been 'taken care of' by benign sexual sugardaddies for generations, and their job has been to nurture their children in an environment that has nothing to do with economic worth. This is a deep emotional seedbed for the growth of a socialistic philosophy that spreads this 'nurture and be nurtured' attitude over the whole earth. I think that your concerns about feminism and socialism are two aspects of the same thing, Zenphamy - two weeds sprung from the same evil root.

I do not regard the scene in AS as a rape scene, but if it were I would ignore it and go on. Ayn Rand was a human woman, and hardly infallible. She had a brilliant clarity of vision with respect to many aspects of economics and the worth of the individual vs society and that is what I treasure. Her fantasies are her own (and if she makes them part of her books, oh well, that is her choice).

Jan
(If a man tried to 'male up' to me, I would put him through a wall. If he apologized and talked philosophy for a while afterwards...maybe I would consider him a candidate. Someone weak - go away; someone arrogant - tear his arms off; an equal seeking an equal - yay.)

That's an excellent analysis. +1,

If you find out, let me know. Of course John did not rape Dagny. I read The Bridges of Madison County years ago...I did not care for the story.

Rape is a crime of violence. What we see in "Fountainhead" is about mutual lust. In a sense, she wanted it to happen, but did not want to take direct responsibility for making it happen. She was fighting her feelings for Roark, in a similar manner that she fought ultimate acceptance of Objectivism. She wanted both, but was not quite ready to commit yet or take personal responsibility.

Rand like portraying sexual tension between her heroes. There was no need for asking or consent. As she described the encounter between Roark and Dominique "It was rape by engraved invitation." So it is with encounters throughout her books and even can be found in her play, "The Night of January 16."

Ed, I think people who don't understand Rand reference the Roark/Dominique scene to say that Rand was twisted and liked rape, and they try to include Galt/Dagny in this.

Although no words were used until after the fact,
I thought she was hugging him and stuff during
the procedure.

I must have missed something. Where does the association with Galt and rape come from?

I could not agree with you more! Well stated!

Well said

As in, "I want him so badly, he is to die for!"

Of course John Galt never committed rape. Rape is the unlawful and, more to the point, unwanted carnal knowledge of a woman by a man. He might have played a little rough (so did Henry Rearden and even young Francisco d'Anconia), but he did not do anything she did not want him to do.

Dagny entered the tunnel expecting him to follow, and wanting him to follow.

Here it is, Zen.
"Let him come here, let him break- let it be damned, all of it, my railroad and his strike and everything we've lived by!- let it be damned, everything we've been and are!- he would, if tomorrow I were to die- then let me die, but tomorrow-
And earlier, when she was remembering that she had said she would shoot the destroyer on sight, she thought, "I would have shot him, but not before-"
And on her last night in the valley,
"She did not sleep in the hours that were left to her. She sat on the floor of her room, her face pressed to the bed, feeling nothing but the sense of his presence beyond the wall. At times, she felt as if he were before her, as if she were sitting at his feet. She spent her last night with him in this manner."
Finally, after Galt and Dagny made love, he said, "what I did tonight, I did it with full knowledge that I would pay for it and that my life might have to be the price."
I can't see how anyone could call that rape.

my apologies, Zen. . I saw this "humor site" flow
chart, below in response to K, and put that together
with her "killer post" memo in my mind. . it hurt to
see the word used in that flow chart. -- j
.

ummmmm ... Thanks, Emma;;; I thought of it because of
K's "killer post" memo. . it's always intrigued me,
since I have felt much the same at times in my life.

strong love and strong lovemaking go together,
in my experience. . it hurt when I saw the word
"rape" on that site. -- j
.

I will look it up tomorrow and quote it to you. It was like a part of her wanted him that badly.

You know I realize and acknowledge the thing with women that desire, and insist that a man be a male and demonstrate that to her in whatever way makes sense to her, but a male simply can't respond that way in today's world. Just like women that want to play the 'yes--no' game to demonstrate to themselves how desirable they are and how much power they have over men, then charge the man with going too far. It's just like there is no way whatsoever that a grown man can be involved with young children in a mentoring or caring manner. The man winds up in prison, and killed by the other inmates, or in solitaire for the entire time and to get released, has to go through chemical castration with his picture handed out to the entire community.

It's a f***king nightmare to be a white male in this country. I don't like that this topic was brought up in the context of AR's writings. Her fiction was intended to illustrate her philosophy in such a way as to relate to the people living and suffering in the world of reality, not to be a sounding board for todays nonsense socialist feminism. The male/female interaction is at a level below the conscious and can be distorted by genetics as well as the social construct of development, but understanding that doesn't require this nonsense of today's description and definitions of rape.

Surrender her life? That seems a little extreme for making love.