Sorry for not posting this sooner, Petri, but my first reaction was to warn your daughter to scope out the environment carefully. If the teacher's views are anti-Randian or Socialist or whatever, there's a good chance that merely disagreeing with or questioning the teacher's comments or suggestions will earn an Instant F in the class.

There have been too many reports of that shit happening at schools. If the teacher is, in fact, trying to 'mind-fuck' the students, suggest that she parrot back what the teacher wants to hear, collect the good grades for her record, and go back to thinking when the class is over.

just MY two cents... after taxes.
:)

this is a good thing, don't misunderstand me. some Rand is better than no Rand.
But Anthem? They should have read it in their Honors Middle School English Class.
"Honors" classes, especially summer ones, used to be grueling, satisfying WORK.
They should be reading Fountainhead. and discussing 3-on-1 with the teacher, so he knows who's gotten what.

oh, let the building fall down and sow salt in the ruins and I'll sit under a tree with a couple of kids and read what they need to read next.

LW, this virtual "outside" may allow some to "go Galt"
and live a more fulfilling life by virtue of the valuable
people and their contributions here. . I just simply
retired early, at 59, and am hiding away here, loving
life more because of people like you. . Thank You! -- john
.

ummm ..... my desire for your happiness, quill67,
is an okay form of selfishness, yes? -- j
.

I greatly enjoyed that book. Greatly.

Nothing wrong with wanting stuff that doesn't yet belong to you -- the distinction should be whether you intend to get it by buying or looting.

If you mean that there is nowhere "outside" to go in our current world (not the world of Anthem) then I would point out that many of our discussions have revolved around finding a solution to this problem. Additionally, this virtual Gulch is "outside" to a sufficient extent that topics can be discussed within the context of mutually accepted rational parameters.

This is not "outside" in terms of having a new world to colonize and 'start over' on, but it many of us have not had a context for conversations like this before.

Jan

Ha. It is my favorite.

Jan (AS is second)

It is like "jealousy". There is me-too jealousy and there is me-instead jealousy. We lack the vocabulary.

How about 'self-interested' selfishness vs 'avaricious' selfishness?

Jan

This makes me sad, because I had to read Anthem in high school and thought it was really boring and artsy. Any other of Rand's fiction is much more gripping.

"The 'outside' [in 'Anthem"]would degrade into
uselessness"? Does LWinn mean Equality's and
his Golden One's and the friends he intends to
recruit would degrade into uselessness? It's not
necessary, or even likely. As to his hometown, it
has already degraded into uselessness, and is
pretty well hopeless.

Yes. A favorite quote from those who worship the mystics "talk the talk and walk the walk.

If my children are any example, she will de-program from your words but also from watching the way you live.

My daughter is only 6 and I'm already talking to her about Ayn Rand hoping it sinks in early and to help De - program the liberal philosophy taught in public schools. Can't wait for her reading level to advance enough to comprehend Rands work.

I am a non-”producer” and an infrequent contributor here because I generally doubt the value of this kind of discourse (and I do value my dollars). I, too, use Anthem as in introduction to objectivism. I just do it with the knowledge that the novel’s logic is flawed. Rand had little understanding of technology or science. If I were a socialist, I would take full advantage of that by pointing out that the "outside" in Anthem would degrade into uselessness within a matter of years, not decades. I would then point out that there is nowhere “outside” to go. And yet you need an escape to survive as an objectivist (a non-socialist). Is that not a logical contradiction, almost like a proof in mathematics?

You might want to put into context when Anthem was written. Rand had just put her foot into the shallow end of the pool of philosophy.

yes. for avarice-the word "self" should not be included

Amen.

"hardly a selfish concern."
I wish there were different words for the two meanings of selfishness: wanting things for yourself and wanting things that don't belong to you.

Some of the statements about individualism/selfishness seem stark in this book and could be abused if the teacher so chose; however, the first thing the main character plans to do at the end of the book is free more of like minded people from the collective and build a new community and his motives for doing so seem to be that he wants others to be happy like himself--hardly a selfish concern.

This is how I feel, too. My daughter is top-ranked in her class and good at questioning (mostly me). Even someone not as intelligent will benefit from the exposure. Flashes of "aha" will hit them over their college years and beyond. I have faith it will sink in and will be applied as real life hits these students square on. Wish I had read Rand at that age. My life would have taken a different direction.

Although my kids are now past HS, I fully agree with you. Ayn Rand with a bad teacher is better than no Ayn Rand at all. Of course the way to over come bad teachers is to be an active parent. Believe me the school "system" hates active parents.

Wow.

You should know: "Anthem" was my intro to Ayn Rand. A hole-in-the-wall book shop in New Haven, Conn., put it on the Science Fiction shelves. I bought it, read it, and went to the Yale University Bookstore (then known as the Yale Co-operative Corporation Store) and bought a copy of every novel and essay collection Rand ever had published.

Even if the teacher's planning to trash Rand, *just reading the books is good*. If I had the undesirable choice of my kids taking a class that ignored Rand or had them read it but was critical of it, I'd rather have them read it. Hopefully they'll read it anyway, but I truly believe Ayn Rand's books can stand up to criticism. Even if teenagers read them and learns how supposedly evil they are, the teenagers will grow up and see the truth all around them in just a few years.