I believe everyones comments are correct. It seems that the Pres will leave the nation in a ruin for the next elecrted Pres to fix. Also, there is an Oligarch running amock to destroy the 2nd Amendment state by state. His groups are going state by state bribing legislators in one form or another for not only registering citizens guns but in the fuzzy laws that were passed in those states that the guns are not really owned by the citizens but the state. But to will them to your next of kin is illegal. Soon we will see that groups of people will no longer tolerate such intrusion in there lives that a Civil War could erupt. That's how I see the disintergration of this country.

" how things are in New Zealand relative to Australia and the USA? "

Gun laws- In Oz and NZ would not be to the liking of most on the Gulch. Laws are very tight, those who get licenses such as for sport or for protecting livestock are such a kind of person who would not even overstay a parking limit. But shootings happen, then there is an outcry for tougher restrictions, of course those who did it invariably did not have a license.

Government debt- The government elected last year, the libs (=conservatives) are not as spendthrift as the labs (=liberal/lefties) and are still increasing debt but much slower. We are probably at the lower end by international standards, this is taken by the left that borrowing more is ok, others think that other nations have borrowed too much.
Now, sure, the size of US gov debt is alarming, but does it matter who owns that debt? If it is other branches of gov, or no one eg the reserve bank, then what? Can so much be borrowed that there are not enough zeroes to express it? I suspect the problem is not so much being vulnerable to China or Saudi as destroying the economy by inflation.

Socialized medicine- first I will say I am an extreme left winger as described by a fellow member of our Austrian group here. So, socialized medicine has some merits. One big problem is that it grows and grows. This can be controlled by rationing. So instead of patient/doctor (customer/provider) deciding, decisions are made by pen-pushers who, as they become more important their pay goes up, and there are more of them. Increasing costs are soaked up by this bureaucracy. They vote as a block, one way.

Immigration- It used to be that arriving by boat after weeks at sea got you in especially if claiming to be from Afghanistan, it is tighter now but Islamist preachers appear to have no difficulty with the proper sponsorship. The immigration rules are designed to bring in the healthy, then the skilled, then the professionals, then the entrepreneurs. All these in roughly age order. Yes there is the business entry scheme very popular with HongKongers, as always a good lawyer helps.

Jan, a good modern day Fairy Tale:

"Grannie, do all fairy tales begin with 'Once Upon a Time?"

"No darling. there is a whole series of fairy tales that begin with 'If Elected I Promise'."

The purpose of this thread is to discuss whether or not America is finished...not to present the premise that she is. We differ in our opinions, here.

Besides which...I like Fairy Tales...

Jan

In order for America not to be finished, we would have to bring out a list that would read like a Fairy Tale...

And yet, most on this forum of thinking people say America is done. So what's the hazard?
Wouldn't it be worth it if the constitution were clarified, for example, removing welfare from the federal government's authority and relegating it solely to the states?

You state what cannot be done because 'America is finished'. I state what must be done in order for America not to be 'finished'.

Jan

If one reads his books and listens to his early speeches, it becomes clear that Obama is primarily driven by hate - hate towards the white man and the white man's civilization. Hate has it's own "logic" and stops at nothing to achieve its goals, even if in the process it causes damage to the host. Just like Palestinian mothers are only too happy to sacrifice their sons to kill Jews, Obama is just as happy to sacrifice the lives of other blacks, including the future of his own daughters, to destroy the white man. Hate is a powerful force...

Please tell me what specific features/items/etc. do you think that America has currently that makes it "unique"? I emphasize "currently".

Agree, but events happen much faster now than in the Ancient times. The 250 years you're foreseeing may turn out to be 25 or 50.

Instead of expecting an unrealistic outcome, like voters that would voluntarily give up "free" loot, perhaps we should consider that a voting system that gives away "free" loot is fundamentally flawed and needs to be eliminated?

Jan, one does not "politely decline government funds" - that is just not realistic in the environment that we live in. Practically all of our "leaders" are elected based on how much pork they bring in. Besides, you don't tell a slave owner "thank you, but no thank you."

There is a huge pool of untapped wealth in this country - the federal lands in the western states. If we had a homestead act 2.0, coupled with an elimination of the welfare system, we could recover within a decade.

Do you really trust anyone to make amendments to the Constitution today?!?!? I suggest that every time you think about that one, go to the beach and sit in the sun until the feeling goes away.

America is finished...now. There is no relation between the America in which I was raised and the America I live in now. What people consider to be freedom now, I consider to be suffocating.

Cameras everywhere, political correctness, people unashamed to take government handouts, lawsuits and government regulations strangle businesses, kids can't do math in their heads, parents don't question laws that usurp their authority, smart TVs that listen to conversations, GPS in cars that can also listen to you, creepy targeted advertising, creepy facebook, doctors who follow one size fits all medical algorithms and are now afraid of their own shadows....I could go on and on about the Alice in Wonderland qualities of the New America.

But I won't.

I just find it odd that so many of the people I know consider this to be "progress." But I guess that's part of the Lewis Carroll story-like charm.

It is no longer possible to "recover fairly quickly" -- the issue is not just the leadership anymore -- the mindset of the population has been too deeply corrupted by several generations of political indoctrination. The "leadership" that we have is not happenstance -it is what the majority demands. Hitler did not take Germany on the path to war and destruction - Germany found Hitler to take it where the majority wanted to go. Do you think Osama would have ascended to the White House 50 years ago?

If you find a place that's not doing the same thing as here, I'd like to know where that is. Everyone is going by the same playbook. Every central bank is printing currency like they've lost their minds, which suggests that all the major countries are going down the same road; if they fall, the small countries won't be able to survive. So, where to go?

Unfortunately, it looks like it will require a complete collapse (followed by a global collapse, because everyone is playing from the same script) before things can turn around. There's no guarantee that they will turn around, but a complete collapse will be necessary, because people are still drinking the kool-aid, and seem completely reluctant to give it up. So, they will have to have the black-out moment before they will wake up (if they wake up).

"but that should not deter from the attempt." -- Why? To prolong the pain? If the republic fails completely in the next 10-20 years, the people that still remember what the Republic was and that would have been capable of rebuilding it would be either dead or too old to do anything. If the system collapses now, there are still a few people left that are capable of rebuilding. The collapse is inevitable; the longer it is postponed, the less of a probability of being rebuilt. We will simply become another failed state for at least several generations.

Some historians set the start of the decline of the Roman Empire at around the time of Julius Caesar and Augustus.  The Roman and US constitutions have a number of likenesses and similar evolution from their beginning until they became essentially a political tool used, interpreted or ignored.  The US constitution seems to be at the same “evolutionary” place that the Roman constitution was just before Julius Caesar installed himself as emperor.   If this is true and we can use Rome as a template, maybe we can expect the US to drift into a long decline for the next 250 years until Washington D.C. is sacked.   
   The above scenario would probably fit into a picture of people sitting around in a futuristic fantasy world with embedded electronic devices.  Inflation will get out of control while higher and higher taxes are required to fund ever expanding entitlements.  The decline will be exacerbated by poverty, cultural decay, loss of borders and language degeneration.   
Magic Dog

I do not think this decline can be easily reversed. Our efforts seem futile. God is my hope. Politics and philosophy have failed.

Maybe the popularity of the walking dead TV series is that a lot of people feel this is what our country will degenerate to. Its not zombies we have to worry about- its other citizens and the government.

I expect those zombie hordes, having no Big Brother to support them, will mostly succumb to their denial and unpreparedness. Surely for the prepared, self-defense will quickly become the norm. How we might project how many will survive is a an answer to be seen only from the abyss. Hopefully that "mindset" will quickly disappear!

I have made a start on describing what we'll be doing to make a restart, that at
http://no-ruler.net/ Our focus will be on "Going Voluntary..." and will be written in a series of new posts.

It maybe too late for many however I believe if you are a true objectionist you have a good chance if you can begin now or as I already have begun. One must become self sufficient in all aspects in life ie be able to feed yourself and your family and to protect all you have. Building your own Gulch is very rewarding so why worry if you have covered everything the best you can. In stead of looking at doom and gloom invest in your own survival in both ways for if a collapse and for no collapse. We are the true thinkers(or I'd like to think so).

abaco,

if you take the time to research many of my comments since I joined the gulch you read over and over again that I have said what you are saying now. my saying it is only offering what Ayn Rand has said for years before her death.