Two cops gunned down over the weekend -- Where are the cries for their "Due Process?"
Posted by woodlema 8 years, 11 months ago to Government
We had quite the thread over Freddy Gray, a long term career criminal, and all the cries for his Due Process.
More and more FACTS are coming out, and the more we hear the more we find the cops really did not do anything wrong other than perhaps some procedural things.
Freddy DID have a warrant issued for him on 3/13/2015, and did have a court summons issues for him on 4/12/2015 the day he died.
BUT --- WHERE are the cries for the due process of the two police MURDERED over the weekend. Where are the cries of outrage over the 25 year old cop MURDERED in New York a week ago.
Why are we in the Gulch ONLY taking the side of the criminals and those who provide NO REAL VALUE!!!
Isn't a cornerstone of Objectivism the VALUE on has?
Where is the VALUE of criminals vs. the Police?
Before we start getting into surveillance, and all the other justifications for hating cops, the cops themselves to not pay for, contract or install this stuff. It is the people "WE" elect into office and "ALLOW" them to do these things.
I want to see how many of you actually care about these MURDERED COPS.
More and more FACTS are coming out, and the more we hear the more we find the cops really did not do anything wrong other than perhaps some procedural things.
Freddy DID have a warrant issued for him on 3/13/2015, and did have a court summons issues for him on 4/12/2015 the day he died.
BUT --- WHERE are the cries for the due process of the two police MURDERED over the weekend. Where are the cries of outrage over the 25 year old cop MURDERED in New York a week ago.
Why are we in the Gulch ONLY taking the side of the criminals and those who provide NO REAL VALUE!!!
Isn't a cornerstone of Objectivism the VALUE on has?
Where is the VALUE of criminals vs. the Police?
Before we start getting into surveillance, and all the other justifications for hating cops, the cops themselves to not pay for, contract or install this stuff. It is the people "WE" elect into office and "ALLOW" them to do these things.
I want to see how many of you actually care about these MURDERED COPS.
REALLY?! I dispute that. It wasn't a *procedural thing* that severed his spinal column.
[Freddy DID have a warrant issued for him on 3/13/2015, and did have a court summons issues for him on 4/12/2015 the day he died.]
OK, he had a warrant, but he didn't have a court-ordered execution outstanding, did he? I haven't paid careful attention in anticipation of your mea culpa with regard to your incorrect reporting that he had just had back surgery and probably severed his own spine, but you may have made it - and I remember that you specified that you were trying to confirm the information.
Addressing your headline, Where are the cries for their "Due Process?" that is a silly question! Government (the legal or justice system) is obligated to provide due process. That is not a function, or even a possibility for criminal action. Besides, all the headlines I read were announcing the murder, in cold blood, of two cops and they reported that there was a manhunt under way for the murderers. I saw plenty of calls for justice.
In case you were lamenting the contrast in reaction from the "general population," that is, the same people who protested and/or pillaged and destroyed, it's to be expected. When a government agent gets killed he has the entire machinery of government working for justice. When a "citizen" gets killed, especially someone with a criminal history and especially a member of a minority class that has been and may still be oppressed, it will probably be on the shoulders of some-kind-of-activist to pursue justice.
I feel comfortable saying, relying on anecdotal evidence and foregoing an exhaustive research effort, that misdeeds by government representatives at ALL levels get covered up and go unpunished in the vast majority of cases. This happens not only because they want to protect each other, but because scrutiny of government must be avoided at all costs.
I'm not going to stick up for Freddie as a person. It appears he was a habitual criminal, even though most (and possibly all) of the charges were for things that would not be crimes in a world that Objectivists and libertarians would call just.
It all comes down to this. Guilty or innocent, habitual criminal or first-time offender, the job of the police is to apprehend and arrest. That is supposed to be done with the minimum necessary force. Anything in excess of that is not OK.
falling or twisting or landing under a motorcycle.
I'm just glad that one was not my spine. -- j
p.s. retirement is Fun!!!
.
I have seen the incidents of cops drunk with power creating unconstitutional situations. But I still cannot believe that they represent the majority. I don't think that anyone can deny that putting on a police uniform is the same as painting a target on your body. That alone can lead to a certain negative mind-set depending on the situation.
"According to these conservatives, police are “just doing their job” and we shouldn’t hold them responsible if they violate their oaths at the command of the legislature. No decent person should defend himself against the gun grabber cop who confiscates his weapons and threatens him with years of imprisonment. The gun grabber cop is nothing more than the product of the gun grabber politician, he has no responsibility to disobey the unconstitutional and fundamentally unjust order to disarm the populace. The politician is evil, and so we should work really hard to vote him out of office in 2, 4, or 6 years, but the police officer who enforces the will of the politician, and cannot be voted out of his position, is unquestionably good and decent and should be praised no matter what.
But then, if police are to be praised because they maintain order, yet forgiven as fundamentally not responsible for the bad laws they also enforce, isn’t there a bit of a contradiction here? If the cop is not responsible for the bad laws he enforces, then for what reason would we let him take credit for the good laws he enforces? Rape, murder, and robbery have all been illegal for as long as recorded history allows us to look back, as long as it wasn’t carried out by mere mortal civilians, that is. Even the politician can’t take credit for the prohibition on predation. So if we hold the politician responsible for bad laws, and the cop wholly unresponsible for enforcing those bad laws, then why hold the cop in praise for enforcing good laws which predated the existence of them both?
Saying you disagree with a policy, then heaping praise on someone who enforces that policy on you at gunpoint, doesn’t seem like the most solid of moral platforms from which to preach. It actually seems quite treacherous. The average police officer will spend quite a small portion of his career actually stopping predation. The vast majority of it will be spent pursuing the war on drugs, petty traffic citations, and inflicting all manner of needless suffering on the populace at the behest of his political masters."
And here's the death score for 2015 through 5/9/15: (killedbypolice.net)
Cops -- 10
Citizens -- 412
How many of those 412 were shot in self-defense, or during the commission of a crime?
Further, how many of the 412 killed were in the process of trying to kill an police officer or other person?
Although, I do believe this consequences is the tip of the iceberg for police overstepping their scope. Additionally, I find it interesting the very people wanting to take citizen's guns, also want the police to "behave".
4500 Americans are Killed Crossing the Street Each Year. http://everybodywalk.org/4500-americans-...
Here is the BIG one. You hate cops, and think they are bad. How about your well trained Doctor.
In 1999, the Institute of Medicine published the famous “To Err Is Human” report, which dropped a bombshell on the medical community by reporting that up to 98,000 people a year die because of mistakes in hospitals.
http://www.propublica.org/article/how-ma....
You are 240 times MORE likely to DIE by medical malpractice, than by a Cop even IF 911 is called on you.
Doctors spend upwards of 10 - 15 years on schools LEARNING their trade.
Seems to me, that Cops not matter how you cut it, no matter how you slice it, do a DAMN good job.
This is only interesting because of the perceived injustice. The number of people killed is really quite irrelevant.
Still do think police have to forgo more scrutiny than others since they are those entrusted to enforce the freedom-limits the government has imposed.
Also interesting that police officers are so liable for their official actions, while other more powerful and well-educated government officials are indemnified!
I agree that body cameras on cops should help in these situations...I say should because the cop has to turn it on! From an ongoing case here in my little corner of the left coast.
Saying this...the cop must be punished for killing an innocent person. Giving them a gun does not relieve them of the responsibility of not "over reacting". (the 12 yr old in Cleveland)
If you think a 12 year old with a gun is harmless, look at all the 9 and 10 year olds in the middle east with AK-47's.
How was the cop supposed to know he was wielding a TOY gun?
I blame the parent in this for not teaching their kids.
I have numerous nieces and nephews all know I have lots of guns of different sizes and types. You can ask ANY of them, what is the first and second rule of guns be it toy or real/
They will tell you in this order.
1) ALWAYS -- ALWAYS assume it is loaded and chambered.
2) NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER pull it out, point it or wave it at ANYONE unless you plan to use it.
And that is after several hours of assembly and disassemble and safe gun handling training with each one of them. All ages from 8 to their late teens.
The lesson for us is that we should try to encourage a closer relationship between our law enforcement and their community, to prevent their corruption. Likewise, we need to push for drug courts and public service as more desirable restraints on non-violent criminals. The results of these policies will pay off in more trustworthy public servants, and fewer violent criminals.
As for the cops killed in revenge, I see those as war casualties. I would prefer that that never happen, but when police are given immunity (or the prosecutors won't indict them because they're their friends) so that victims have no other way to get justice, I can't blame the killers.
The bottom line has to be that we must expect cops to behave morally -- and that means not only refraining from corruption, but refusing to enforce unjust laws. Which means in practical terms you can't be a cop today and still be a decent human being. To cure this we will need much more than a crackdown on corruption; we will also need a massive and permanent purge of unjust laws from the books of all levels of government. And above all, we will need a complete removal of immunity from officials of any kind. The law can only have moral weight again when it spares no one.
The Cop did violate protocol,a nd procedure, however, the cop was 5'10" Eric 6'4" 350 lbs and WAS resisting arrest, and he had been arrested 30 times over the previous year.
Eric Garner should have known the drill and NOT resisted. I did see the video, and he was NOT going along quietly. I am not saying his "accidental" death was right, but it was NOT murder. Involuntary manslaughter maybe.
I can promise you that if I resisted it would take more than 4 cops using all their might force and tazers to take me down if I resisted.
You can disbelieve in the force it took them to get Eric down all you want, but I spent several years bouncing in biker bars, and one thing I learned. NEVER underestimate ANYONE. ALWAYS assume they are tougher than you and fight like they are. Punch them 6" behind the back of their head and follow through, end it and end it fast and make absolutely sure your opponent is not able to get up when your done. That means if confronted, throat punch, sternum punch, broken floating rib, knee caps, broken bones call ambulance.
I have watched too many "gentlemen" fights in bars, where the "good guy" fought with proverbial honor, only to have the other guy hit him in the back of the head with a beer bottle when he turned his back.
Again after 30 arrests you would have thought Eric would have known the drill.
Also if I recall, regular citizens had called 911 about a kid waving a gun around, so naturally the cops would HAVE to assume it was real.
I know if I was responding to a 911 where people think a kid is brandishing a 9mm, my first assumption is it would be real not a toy.
Next if I recall the kid acted, "according to reports" like he was doing a "fast draw" on the cops. Again, I would shot first ask question later too.
It seems an automatic jump to police doing something wrong, and give everyone else the benefit of the doubt.
It's crazy that we currently mix the two, creating a laboratory in which the otherwise non-violent are poisoned and turned violent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0UJJ3f2...
Since they are "entrusted" and have the supposed education should be held to a much higher standard and be punished more aggressively.
I will; however, reiterate, that even if you only had 1% of the reported civil rights violations by police actually reported. you are looking at only 28,000 per year vs. the more than 40,000,000 police interactions, arrested, chases with citizens in an official capacity. That is still .0007 errors/bad actors.
And if you even take is a step further of 1/10th of 1% bad cop actions being reported, that brings you stat to .007, or .7% error, or cops doing a job, 99.3% of the time perfectly at risk of death every time they interact.
I will say again, that I have yet to get my Whopper accurate 99.3% of the time.
Also Freddy Gray has record proving he is violent with assault charges as well as a 2 yr prison sentence.
Prostitution, Gambling, buying beer on Sunday before noon, smoking weed, snorting coke, shooting up heroine, all stuff that I believe has no place in the criminal justice system. As long as they snort, shoot up, get boffed on their time, and do not involve me I do not care one iota.
Were it me I would remove all laws pertaining to drugs, let people take whatever they want in whatever quantities they want, not my business.
Personal injury and when others impact you or I is what the legal system of torts is really for.
The trouble is that the human brain is not fully formed until the mid to late 20s. Drug exposure to those in that group alters brain chemistry and neural pathways, preventing virtually all hope of recovery and creating a huge cost to society. Unless, of course, as George Bernard Shaw suggested, we just euthanize them out of their misery.
http://www.concordmonitor.com/home/16716...
My opinion."
You didn't say it, but I inferred, that 28,000 civil rights violations / year by cops is acceptable. Wait, I'll rephrase that, I inferred that you consider 28,000 / 40M = 0.7% "error" (I say illegal oppression by a government thug) rate to be a laudable level of *improper* violence by police against those they are meant to protect.
I find it wholly *unacceptable.* An "error" is when a cop spells your name wrong, or detains you because you fit the description of a wanted suspect, or writes you a speeding ticket without realizing he was actually clocking a different car.
Beating a suspect that's clearly already under control or shooting a man whose back is to you, those are NOT ERRORS! Dear Zeus, it's like Lois Lerner or Alberto Gonzalez or Eric Holder getting caught red handed LYING to Congress and then whining that they "misspoke" or "failed to tell the truth." Bullshit! They LIED and they should be immediately held in contempt of congress and spend 30 days in jail - starting right then and there.
Hearing Chairman: This hearing is continued until 30 days hence. The Seargent at Arms will arrest Mr. Holder and take him immediately to the nearest federal penitentiary. His only reading material is to be a copy of the Constitution of the USA.
Mr. Holder: But, but, but,... This is outrageous!
Hearing Chairman: Yes, sir, is outrageous. Seargent at Arms, gag the prisoner until he is out of these chambers.
I also don't subscribe to the "few bad apples" view of cops. There may be only a few who rise to the level of severely injuring or killing people when conditions don't demand it (be they innocent or guilty), and there's no doubt there are lots of cops that attempt to do a good job and actually help people on a regular basis, but I will stand by my statement that every cop is corrupt. I meant to say every and I'll explain why.
The moment a new cop breaks any law, no matter how trivial, he is officially corrupt and has lost the moral authority to impose the law upon others. And the moment a cop arrests another person for a crime he commits himself then he is irredeemable.
Thank you, though, for saying this, "Since they are "entrusted" and have the supposed education [and training] should be held to a much higher standard and be punished more aggressively." I agree with that 100%.
I believe Obama is not at all interested in helping black people conduct a successful revolution or coup or anything like it. He just wants to provoke the attempt -- or better yet, an attempt he can blame on the Right or libertarians -- so that the public will stand still for martial law or something close to it. Why else would he still be giving local police all that military hardware, much of which even state National Guards haven't been allowed to have until very recently?
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/05/...
The only obvious (to me) difference between this case and Garner's is that Tony Robinson wasn't black. But as a result, there probably won't be riots over it.
I believe today's police will do these things to people of any color. But most white people don't yet feel threatened by it (and of course black people want us to believe the myth that it happens only to them). Sooner or later the masses will wake up, but it may happen too late if I'm right about Obama's intentions.