Quite right. Thank you for the extrapolation/clarification.

a patriarchal society is not freedom

terrycan, I believe we are WAY beyond that

you did not ask for it, nor are you advocating for such after the fact.
I think a key argument would be, I am not complicit even though a gun is pointed at my head. However, I am compliant

When I lecture I state: "there are three absolutes in life - death- taxes- and endodontic disease. Everything else is relative." That said, my take on the pledge is to be self reliant and this includes the family unit. I asked my dad how he survived the great depression. His answer: "the family banded together and did what we had to do to survive." It is the loss of the family unit that will be the demise of our country - nothing else. My understanding is that Ayn believes that no one should rely on another and should only rely on themselves. This I believe.

You can have infrastructure.

Why does the government have to take tax money from folks to build infrastructure that the taxpayer doesn't even necessarily want?

I don't think it is practical to run a state or country without some form of infrastructure. We can get much closer to a Gultch than we are. I believe the key is to be more involved in politics at the local level.

So, let's talk about how such a pledge affects Social Security and Medicare. Does taking the pledge mean only taking out what you put in? Or what you put in, plus interest? And what is proper interest, if so? And...how practically do you really STOP taking beyond what you've put in, as once you start, they're just going to keep mailing (or direct depositing?) the money...

From a taxing perspective, probably every day I've worked so far this year has been worked for the sake of another!

We need to look at the moochers and looters and say one word. No.

The accurate quote. Man not person.

Understood. The key element is that you did not ask for it. Additionally you should feel no guilt, since you have no doubt, contributed more to those subsidies than the benefit you have received. Those other taxpayers aren't subsidizing those roads just for your benefit. They also benefit; do they not? There are some legitimate functions such as the military which we all contribute to for benefit of all, but you are included and contributing. Naturally the moral option would be for all other needs to be paid for on a by use basis. Tolls on roads etc.
As far as the price of corn or any other commodity that is subsidized goes, it is also the government that regulates and drives up those prices. Yes, without subsidies you would perhaps pay more for a few items, but other products, perhaps even cheaper would perhaps be available if it were not for the unfair advantage given by subsidies. Market forces should set prices. Subsidies and all other interference in the market only serve special interests and generally increase overall costs to the consumer while limiting innovation, competition, and alternatives.

But if the price of, say, corn, would be $5.00 an ear without subsidy, and $1.00 an ear with, aren't I *asking* for a price that requires someone else to live their life for mine by having subsidized that corn purchase.

Those workers who built the roads were compensated, but they were compensated with money that was taken from other people against their will. By using those things, aren't I -- in effect -- asking for those taxpayers to pay for my use of their roads? (especially true if I'm driving in, say, a different state where none of "my" taxes were collected for the construction of that road).

I think it's a fine line, and that by "partaking" of the benefit of those subsidies, even a couple "steps removed" from the actual subsidy, I feel like I *am* in fact, "asking" for that, even if I don't WANT to be asking for it.

Hello dballing,
The pledge does not require you to abstain from using products that may have been produced by such means as you describe, only that you do not ask/demand it. You pay those taxes also. The workers that made those roads and the farmers that grew the food were compensated and you contributed. The subsidies are indicative of the government demands for you and all others who contribute to live for the sake of others. They are the common foe and they alone have the power to exercise force unchecked.
Respectfully,
O.A.

At 62, I've never seen this nation in worse shape but I didn't live the Depression, different time, different situation. We have a 2 party system that doesn't work. The Moochers for the poor and the Moochers for the rich. (Just for the record I've been a true blue R for over 50 years.)
It's long past time for the Galt party, defenders of the common man, the future of a nation.

I want to take the pledge, but here's my challenge.

It is impossible in society today to live without (accidentally) asking another to live their life for mine.

- I cannot eat food that is completely free of gov't subsidies in its production line
- I cannot drive on a road that has not, in some way, been funded by having had money taken from other people against their will

The examples are numerous. I don't *want* society to work that way, but I have no way of asking for, say, a loaf of bread completely free of any gov't subsidies. Because there is not yet a Gulch that is isolated from such.

And I'm not willing to swear the pledge, until I know I can *actually* live it, every minute of every day.

Thoughts?

I do not need to "take the pledge". I have lived my life according to these words for over 40 years.

Why, thank you! :-)

I really like how you phrased THAT !!!

I like how you phrased that. :-)

Make my day, punk!! Meet my traveling companions, Smith & Wesson. I will not live for the sake of the moochers and looters!

"If you saw Atlas, the giant who holds the world on his shoulders, if you saw that he stood, blood running down his chest, his knees buckling, his arms trembling but still trying to hold the world aloft with the last of his strength, and the greater his effort the heavier the world bore down on his shoulders - what would you tell him to do?" "To Shrug."

"Don't tread on me!"

"Get out of my way!"

I swear by my life, and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.