Why Intellectual Property Rights? A Lockean Justification

Posted by khalling 10 years, 6 months ago to Philosophy
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well researched paper by Professor Mossoff. It begins with an historical treatment of Locke and Anglo-American development of legally protected intellectual property and moral justification. The paper then addresses especially the Libertarian arguments against IP, including the utilitarian model of property rights in land and scarcity arguments.


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  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 10 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    While Einstein pretty much put an end to simultaneity, that still leaves the question of independent invention as a moral issue.

    If two people independently invent the same thing without reference to each others work, why is the first one morally entitled to own the work? In both cases the work is a product of human reason, neither of them benefited from the work of the other.

    While the law can award the rights to one of them, does that mean that the other had no moral claim on his work?
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  • Posted by 10 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    legally expressed, a copyright does not preclude you from talking about my ideas. It precludes you from stating my ideas as your own using my way of expressing them.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 6 months ago
    In the world of electronics, circuitry, software I am not qualified to utter a single word. I can, however, tell a bit of my experience with copyrights as a publisher. There has been confusion over who owns a copyright when someone is hired to provide a service for a company. If they are told what is wanted and given the concept that needs to be created, the copyright is the company's. If the creators of the concept bring it to the company to have them implement the creation, then the copyright does not belong to the company.
    Does this help at all?
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  • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    First all the wiki article is mainly about scientific discoveries not inventions. Second of all the US had a system for determining who was the invention in near simultaneous inventions (there is no such thing as exact simultaneity) and one of the arguments for changing to a first to file system is that near simultaneous invention almost never occur, so the facts do not support that “they happen all the time.” Third the first person is the inventor, the second is not. This is completely fair. There are an infinite number of things to invent including improving things Any inventor with any skill has plenty of opportunities – the whole simultaneous inventor thing is the libertarian equivalent of the liberal zero-sum ideas in economics.

    There are often near simultaneous claims to property land, when property rights are properly defined as in the homestead act. Mining claims, hunting and fishing. The law has practical ways of sorting out the competing claims. This is not unique to patent law.
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  • Posted by $ CBJ 10 years, 6 months ago
    I don’t see where Mossoff’s article addresses the issue of independent invention. History is replete with near-simultaneous inventions and discoveries, each of which involves Locke’s criteria of the creation of value from the application of human reason and labor.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mul...

    Did John Locke ever address the property-rights implications of this issue?
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  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 10 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    As will I. I welcome the discussion.

    There is a rights discussion underlying this, of course. We both agree that the creator of IP has a right to his creation. The question is what types of creations qualify for protection.

    If I look out the window and see the sun shining and exclaim "it's a wonderful day", this should not prevent you from independently looking out the window and making the same observation. Now, if I write a poem about that observation, then I should be able to copyright that.

    To my mind, software patents are an attempt to prevent me from making the obvious conclusion that it is a beautiful day. In essence, it is an attempt to prevent other practitioners of the art from exercising their skills -- and that is, at least in my opinion, immoral.

    (ed. I should have said "independently exercising their skills")
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  • Posted by DeanStriker 10 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Very good analogy, which reveals a great difference between original concept and the artificial "laws" of patent. Morally "original concept" prevails, while the "laws" serve in such instance to greatly muddy the waters.

    Perhaps mere original concept, if lacking a product made available for consumption is, or should be, insufficient to support a claim of patent protection?

    Small wonder that our lives have become subjected to the so-called Rules of Law, always written by the lawyers for the PTB, who rarely if ever consider anything beyond more Force!
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  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 10 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    As I pointed out to K, copyright is also used for architecture, which is a blend of artistic and practical. Plus, of course, your non-fiction books are also copyrighted. Although you can express facts in an artistic fashion.

    I would also suggest that there is some artistic style to source code, certainly people who read and write it regularly can recognize that.

    Of course it's not exactly the same but it certainly isn't wiring either.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "What our dispute is over is whether patent protection is the best way to achieve that goal."
    If this were just about the "issue" which would be procedural under the law, I would agree with you that this was an "issue." However, this is about principles of morality and natural rights.

    We will continue to argue over the definition of software, copyrights and patents.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    again, you are conflating concepts. software is not like a football game nor a story nor a TV show. It's only purpose is to tell an electronic circuit to do something specific. That electronic circuit may do all sorts of things, including playing TV shows, or broadcasting a football game. No one is using the software in any artistic fashion. That is the specific for copyright-artistic expression.
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  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 10 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I read the article twice before commenting. Please stop assuming that I don't know the issues involved. We all three passionately want to protect IP, my personal livelihood depends on that. We all think that it is essential to foster the growth of technology and encourage investment in developing new technology.

    What our dispute is over is whether patent protection is the best way to achieve that goal. My experience having watched the computer industry grow over the last forty years is that while it has always used copyright protection to safeguard IP, the growth of patent protection as a means of guarding IP in the last 20 years has slowed the progress and generated a barrier to entry that wasn't present during the years when Microsoft grew from a company selling a memory board to one of the largest companies in the world.

    Yes, one thing is not exactly like another. Architecture isn't prose or plot, yet it is protected by copyright. In modern times Howard Roark would have his designs protected by copyright, not by patent.

    I will comment that having written a very small amount of prose some 40 years ago, I recently began writing fiction again and was astonished at how similar the process was to working on a large program.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 10 years, 6 months ago
    I am not an intellectual.
    You make anything original--it's copyright yours.
    That just strikes me as common sense.
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  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 10 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You can have a football game which is recorded by a variety of means and edited by a producer. The production can then be stored on a variety of media and can be played on a variety of devices to produce an image -- it is copyrighted. Your television is a device, Sunday Night Football is not.

    Or, another example, 6615130900. I have a phone on my desk that if I punch those numbers into it, will allow me to get a pizza. The number is not a 'device for ordering pizza', it is a series of instructions I type into hardware to produce a result. I do not rewire the phone system, it makes temporary connections. I do not even have to use this phone, I have cell phone of completely different design that will achieve the same result.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    this analogy fails. A story is not an invention. and software is not a story. It is not prose nor a plot. It is a logical structure for telling a machine what to do-specifically some thing that has computing power. As technology disrupts and changes, what is an invention remains the same. Software is the intellectual property of its inventor and should be protected. Please consider reading the article for the fundamental and moral basis for this argument.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    What exactly is the analogy Software does nothing until it is interpreted by hardware and converted into electrical signals.

    Television is electronics. The story presented on the CRT is not television, it is a story. Programming is not like the story, because the story does not tell the television how to do anything. The television just presents an image and sound that is captured in one place and displayed on a screen.
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  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 10 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It's analogous to a television program. You cannot watch it without the electronic circuits of the television that display it but it is not a part of the television, itself. After the program is over, the television set is unchanged.

    I grant you, when you are dealing with microcode that is hard coded into a specific device as a part of the device it might be appropriate, although copyright can work with that as well.

    Certainly the BIOS in the PC is copyrighted, not patented. Although one can argue that IBM may have been better off patenting it. I do think that patenting something as complex as a BIOS would be an amazing challenge. The concept of a BIOS was existing art. It does make an interesting example since considerable effort was made to duplicate the function without copying the code.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    No it is not a metaphor - what is it you think that software does without hardware - electronic circuits.
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  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 10 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You cannot copy the program or a segment of the program and use it directly. You can, of course, write a brand new program to solve the same problem in a similar way but it will be a different creation than mine.
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  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 10 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That's a metaphor, and not a particularly useful one since it isn't actually wiring an electronic circuit and to wire a circuit to actually do what even a relatively simple program would do would be far too complex for anyone to actually do.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Software is a way of wiring an electronic circuit - check you logic and history.

    Ignorance of other people's property rights is not a valid argument for violating them
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  • Posted by $ sjatkins 10 years, 6 months ago
    I am a software architect and I consider software patents as the worse thing that has happened to my profession. A software algorithm is more again to a bit of mathematics or a proof than it is to say a new physical process or physical invention. Like the bit of mathematics or proof many competent developers will hit on roughly the same thing if it covers a sufficiently common need. To lock up future developers with a patent grant over an algorithm is a very serious limitation to future work and to innovation of said algorithm. To make matters worse it is common to stretch the utility of the patented software to cover a much broader area than the actual algorithm or actual implementing code covers. This only increases the problem. Effectively the algoritmic solution space becomes balkanized into a lot of petty fiefdoms. I have worked at countless companies that reinvented wheels long previously invented to either steer clear of known software patents or to create counter patents. This gaming of temporary monopoly in the realm of software algorithms is not at all helpful.

    It is common for young software companies to completely ignore any and all patents and not go looking for them as they can only sew fear uncertainty and doubt and they can hardly afford to license them anyway. And the theory is that they aren't worth suing as they are too small anyway.

    However patent trolls are the next form of negative effect. They buy up patents and aggressively go after all possible parties with legal threats to pay extortion or be hauled into a court battle they cannot afford.

    I think any thinking person can see that this mess is far far beyond the green field vision of the rights of and rewarding creators. The system has become deeply sick and contrary to intent in many ways.
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  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 10 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You can copywrite more than 'look and feel'. Some programs have virtually no 'look and feel'. You have a sequence of instructions which produce an effect, you can copyright the sequence.

    I admit that it doesn't protect the underlying algorithms, it protects that particular implementation of the algorithm. The bulk of the work is coding and testing the algorithms, and if you copy the sequence of instructions you've violated the copyright.

    And, of course pretty much everyone hides their code as a trade secret. In fact it's very rare to release source code.

    As we've argued over this, I've examined my own mental process and I have to say that I don't really think of what I do as 'inventing', I feel it is much more akin to writing -- which you do as well. How would you patent part of your novel?

    Would you patent a plot? Any writer can tell you that plot is just the starting point. It's the way that the plot is implemented, how it hooks into the rest of the story that makes it yours. If I tell you the plot to a novel, you can't just go to your word processor and repeat it.

    Similarly, an algorithm, out of context of the rest of the program is like a plot idea. Reusable in lots of situations but the magic lies in the implementation.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Many libertarians adhere to the Austrian School of Economics, which bases property rights (as do many modern economists) on the utilitarian model of property rights. These libertarians are against any intellectual property, but they tend to focus on software.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 6 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Anarchos do not support intellectual property as being an abstract concept. Please see Stephen Kinsella. any von Mises article on patents frankly.
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