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Boeing's South Carolina employees run off Union organizers

Posted by Non_mooching_artist 6 years, 1 month ago to Business
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I am actually elated after reading this. Unions are the socialists means of control over workers under the guise of "fairness".

Just another scheme to redistribute wealth and maintain control over a cowed populace. Kudos to the Boeing employees!!
SOURCE URL: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/04/24/union-cancels-boeing-vote-says-gun-toting-workers-told-it-to-take-off/?intcmp=latestnews


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  • Posted by $ jlc 6 years, 1 month ago
    Historically, I think that unions did necessary work when people were less mobile. Now, I see them as being parasitic and destructive - and the workers are beginning to see how union representation erodes their long-term employment.

    As long as the area is 'at will', then unions can compete with free workers - and win if they can. It is when there is a closed shop that unions become frightening.

    Jan
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    • Posted by kevinw 6 years, 1 month ago
      Interesting point. When people were less mobile I imagine it was easier to push the idea that people had a right to those jobs because that's all there was and get laws passed that forced the companies to stay at the bargaining table with the unions. And from there force the people to "join" the union in order to get the jobs.
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  • Posted by kevinw 6 years, 1 month ago
    Unions are not inherently evil but many years of government protection and preference have turned them against the very people they are there to protect. They have become just another arm of the government in that the unions have more government protection than the union members.

    From the article; "The union filed an unfair labor practice with the National Labor Relations Board in which it alleged that "two organizers were threatened at gunpoint and others reported hostile and near-violent confrontations," according to a union press release"

    Union organizers use forceful, sometimes violent tactics and are protected by law but then accuse the opposition of using the same tactics. Classic communist tactics according to Oleg Atbashian.of the Peoples Cube.
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    • Posted by jdg 6 years, 1 month ago
      Yes, unions are inherently evil. They're gangsters, who should never have been given their legal license to extort money from workers. The only thing they're good for today is making their opponents pay for Demonrat campaigns.
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      • Posted by kevinw 6 years, 1 month ago
        So a group of individuals working together to improve their pay and/or working conditions is inherently evil? Care to defend that conclusion?
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        • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 1 month ago
          When their work isn't worth what they are demanding as pay, yes.

          What they are doing is essentially forming a non-competitive oligopoly on labor, are they not? They aren't professing better quality work to justify higher pay or better benefits and neither is the market calling for it. They are simply creating an artificial labor shortage in order to drive wages up.

          The thing that unions continue to fail to understand is that the only thing they are doing is raising the price of the goods manufactured by these companies. And according to the basic, immutable laws of supply and demand, a higher price leads to lower demand. So while they might be getting paid more, their company is inevitably going to be producing less and selling less!

          I have no problem with people working hard to earn better pay. Positive working conditions should be mutual - work environment studies show that a positive environment leads to dramatically better production, so this should be a no-brainer for any competent manager. What I have a problem with is people who think they deserve more without changing what they are doing or how they are doing it. That's the entitlement attitude that has us sitting at real debt in this nation >$100 TRILLION.
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          • Posted by 6 years, 1 month ago
            Very well stated and I agree. The overinflated wage clearly results in your above mentioned logical outcome; less profit margin, lower demand for the goods, less production.

            It disgusts me that people DEMAND such high wages when they haven't been earned, when their experience dictates a much lower wage.
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          • Posted by kevinw 6 years, 1 month ago
            In a free market, genuine capitalism, when their work is not worth what they are demanding, pay or otherwise, the business owner/management is free to walk away.

            I agree with everything else you said but none of it justifies the accusation that unions are inherently evil. That accusation completely ignores the fact that unions could accomplish NONE of that without the strong arm of government backing them up. That statement is based on the current activities of unions after years of government meddling. I could make the same exact argument about capitalism. "Capitalism is evil. Capitalism has failed us in healthcare. Capitalism has failed us in the financial sector." We (on this site) all know that this is an illegitimate argument. We all (should) know that capitalism has never failed because it has never been fully implemented. We also know that any time someone on the left makes that argument he loses any credibility. At least for us. So how can you expect to make a blanket argument like that and maintain any credibility.

            Big unions have become nothing more than another tool of the government (mostly the democrat party) to gain votes and to pound on, harass, and extort money from businesses. To blame this on the "inherently evil" union is to deny the root of the problem and loose the debate before you ever get started.
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            • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 1 month ago
              So let me ask this question: how would a union even exist in a true market?

              The reason I can't condone unions in any way is because they are an artificial device created to distort markets by force. Their premise isn't based on who can do the best job and therefore demand the best pay (value given and value received), but rather on coercion to demand pay, etc., regardless of performance.

              I absolutely agree that governments exacerbate the problems presented by unions, but I can't get away from the initial premise of the union in the first place: the proposition that the union worker's membership in a union somehow makes them more valuable than their actual productive activities.
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              • Posted by kevinw 6 years, 1 month ago
                In a free market a union would be returned to its proper position as a representative of a group of employees who might otherwise be unheard in a large company. Around here we tend to be pro-business but you have to keep in mind that not all business owners and of course not all management is going to be ethical, even in a free market where they might eventually suffer for their lack of ethics.

                A union could be beneficial to both the employee and the employer. If either could walk away from the union at any time then the services provided would have to be beneficial. If the employee had to write a check for his union membership he would make sure the union was representing him the way he wanted. Imagine a company needing some skilled workers for a three month job. With a good relationship with a union and they are covered with one phone call. Then the union becomes responsible for providing quality workers or they are not going to get that phone call. And the workers need to do their best to get into the right union so they can get that work. Nobody has a gun to anybodies head. Anybody, including the union, can walk away. The union becomes a business who's customers are both the employee and the employer.
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                • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 1 month ago
                  "Then the union becomes responsible for providing quality workers..."

                  Ah. So you are thinking of it in terms more like a staffing agency. I think I understand where you are coming from now. And yes, in several ways staffing agencies work a lot like how you describe your hypothetical union acting: the company hires a staffing agency to provide qualified labor and in exchange, the company gets charged a higher wage rate of which the staffing agency takes a cut before delivering the rest to the laborer.

                  This type of approach really only has a chance with a high-turnover, low-skill labor pool - which undoubtedly exists today. It is the one most subject to automation for the same reasons. These arrangements tend to break down, however, in a low-turnover or high-skill labor pool because the efficiencies drive the system toward permanent employees rather than the temporary arrangements provided by a staffing company because both the company and the worker want the stability and without the middle man, the employer can effectively pay less (overall) and more (to the employee) at the same time - all without any difference in productivity of the employee. So the real question for your hypothetical is can the staffing agency identify a long-term market in which this model can be successful or are they going to focus on the temp-to-hire idea?
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                  • Posted by kevinw 6 years, 1 month ago
                    Where I'm at we have 2 good size power plants, a few coal mines, natural gas and oil fields and pipelines everywhere. We get Boilermakers and Pipefitters and others through here from all over the country and that is exactly how they work. They tend be a rowdy bunch and there are some that aren't fit to push a broom. But while I wouldn't want to hire most any of them in my shop, many of them are damn good at what they do. And the unions have stringent testing and high standards for the better jobs. A lot of them have a right to be proud as they work hard to build a good reputation and they get asked back by name. A lot of them, though, are just primadonnas and they all rely on unemployment while between jobs. The point is it's a real system and it could work fine if the government would get out of the way.

                    For the longer term purposes think about what unions were originally started for. Working conditions and wages. We have replaced the unions in those areas with numerous government agencies. Now all the unions have to do is sit around and make up ways to remain "necessary". I don't know about you but I'd rather deal with a union on a voluntary basis than any of the aforementioned government agencies any day.

                    The answer to your last question is the best part. If the union/staffing agency couldn't come up with a long term business model that benefits their customers they would just go away.
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    • Posted by 6 years, 1 month ago
      I laughed at the utter irony of that.
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      • Posted by kevinw 6 years, 1 month ago
        I think the real irony is that once the unions get everything they are fighting for then the union itself becomes the tool of oppression of it's members.
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      • Posted by kevinw 6 years, 1 month ago
        I would guess it must have gotten pretty serious, though, for the union goons to back down.

        Hasn't Volkswagen workers also voted against the unions at least 3 times. Except Volkswagen is pushing the unions.
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        • Posted by rbunce 6 years, 1 month ago
          It can be easier for the employer to get a deal out of a group by appealing to the lowest common denominator than by having the deal with 1000 individuals.
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          • Posted by kevinw 6 years, 1 month ago
            I would think it would be easier for a group to get more out of the employer than an individual could. That is a legitimate point of a union. The individual must have the right to join with other individuals to bargain "collectively". But it can only be proper when any party can walk away of their own free will. The current laws in many states protect the unions and force the companies to sit at the bargaining table.
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            • Posted by rbunce 6 years, 1 month ago
              ... and you are correct about the thumb of justice on the unions side... also employees can quit without notice/no reason to their employer while in many cases the employer cannot just terminate an employee.
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            • Posted by rbunce 6 years, 1 month ago
              Depends on the strength of the unit. I worked as an engineer for Boeing in Seattle. The engineers were represented by SPEEA but it was an open shop (not truly open, everyone still covered by the contract). Membership hovered in the 30%-40% range most of the time. My observation was the company officials liked the balance of power.
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            • Posted by $ Technocracy 6 years, 1 month ago
              Why does anyone posit a RIGHT to bargain collectively?

              I don't hire employees as a group, I employ them as individuals.
              If you don't like the terms of employment, don't take the job.
              If you think you are worth more, but your employer disagrees, find another job.
              (If you can, people's claimed skill sets do not appear as comprehensive or effective to the employer on the job)
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              • Posted by kevinw 6 years, 1 month ago
                I guess I didn't state that as well as I could have. You cannot deny individuals the right to assemble and work together for common interests. (the legitimate function of a union) That said, bargaining requires 2 sides and nobody should be able to force you, as an employer, to the bargaining table.
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                • Posted by jdg 6 years, 1 month ago
                  I would have no problem with a union if it didn't purport to represent, or try to collect fees from, anybody who doesn't want to join. The NLRA does allow unions to take that position rather than "represent" everybody at a plant -- but none of them do it.
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                  • Posted by kevinw 6 years, 1 month ago
                    As long as businesses are forced to sit at the table with the unions there can be no reasonable outcome. But if we can't make that argument how can we expect to convince anybody.
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        • Posted by 6 years, 1 month ago
          VW US was not in favor and voted such. I haven't seen what has transpired recently, but will look into it. Tennessee I believe is where the particular plant is.
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          • Posted by kevinw 6 years, 1 month ago
            When I can, I donate to the National Right to Work foundation so I get frequent emails of their activities. Sometimes so many that I just end up deleting them without reading them but it seemed like one of them was talking about the unions losing at VW in spite of the company being pro-union.
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  • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 6 years, 1 month ago
    Threatening union thugs at gunpoint would be fair, in my opinion.
    After 18 years at my current job, the "union" bought off our governor and forced all state employees to become dues paying members. The gun that they pointed at our heads was "join or be fired".
    Like I said, I had worked here for 18 years and now was going to be fired if I refused to join the union...not because of poor job performance...only if I didn't "pay" to keep my job.
    With only a few years to retirement, I caved and paid their ransom. At least, I took the easy way out and pay only for that which is used to represent my interests. That fact requires the union to refund a portion of my dues, every year.
    I can't think of the term for "de-unionizing" my job, but I'm ready to take the vote, when and if it comes up. Scott Walker...where are you when we need you?
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    • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 1 month ago
      What I found interesting was that even though the union thugs were complaining about people pulling guns on them, none of them bothered to file a police report. If this were real, they would not only have an open-and-shut assault case, but it would make intervention by the NLRB almost a gimme.

      What does this say to me?

      It never happened. They got run out of town by good old-fashioned people standing up to bullies who can't take what they dish.
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  • Posted by waytodude 6 years, 1 month ago
    A huge cheers to those who stood up to the unions. I worked in management at a facility that abolished a union and paid the employees on what they produced both in quality and quantity. The employees made more than what the unions bargained for them.
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    • Posted by 6 years, 1 month ago
      They have a stake in their employment when it's not guaranteed. Work hard, EARN the rewards of it. And job security will naturally follow, because a good company wants to keep its productive employees. Who wants to pay someone a wage they haven't earned? And I would feel like such a looter if I was paid for more than my ability. Ugh!
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      • Posted by waytodude 6 years, 1 month ago
        It's amazing how the Hispanic workers could see what we in management was trying to do however the hard sell was with white Americans who didn't want to work yet get paid. Good thing the Hispanic out numbered the white people. Almost made me ashamed to be white.
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  • Posted by BlackBeaver 6 years, 1 month ago
    The International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers canceled the election, claiming threats from workers created a hostile environment. Most likely these unsubstantiated claims were invented by leadership as a way to 'save face'.
    In any event, it is an interesting turn when union leaders, who historically have used violence or the threat of violence to intimidate workers, are now complaining about threats.
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    • Posted by kevinw 6 years, 1 month ago
      Hearing of union leaders getting a taste of their own medicine just warms the heart, doesn't it? Just imagine the nature of those threats that scared off the union thugs who usually are the instigators. Would love to have been a fly on that wall.
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  • Posted by cjmcd 6 years, 1 month ago
    Unionism is a very different can of worms in Germany as VW learned. Yes, VW Chattanooga, TN employees sent the union away several times. Unions have given up on Nissan in Smyrna, TN because they have been rejected so many times. Unions are desperate to get a toe hold in the auto manufacturing of the South, but Southerners continue to think for themselves with minimum gov't interference. With the safety protections offered by various overlapping gov't agencies coupled by the fact that corporations now recognize the difference between employees and GOOD, sober, responsible, hard working employees and those who show up on the job chemically saturated and under educated if they show up at all. Corporations recognize the need to retain capable employees and therefore reward them with little prodding from an outside entity.
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  • Posted by Sunjock13 6 years, 1 month ago
    Not just the control of the workers. Access to vast sums of money so they can control the political process... Anybody ever heard of Sacramento, CA? Criminal, yet institutionalized!
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  • Posted by MagicDog 6 years, 1 month ago
    Labor contracts are collusion between labor and management against the consumer. They cause unemployment when employers pay wages and benefits that are above market value for the skill. They crushed the steel, auto, railroad and other industries in the US. Labor unions are political tools used in a deceitful way by politicians to exploit workers.
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  • Posted by wiggys 6 years, 1 month ago
    in the late 70's and early 80's I lived in Columbia s.c. there was a textile mill and the union tried to get a raise for the few union members all to no avail. the union members went on strike for a few months and then the mill gave all of its employees a raise so the strikers came back to work and the union told them the union got them the raise. I observed that people from the south are very independent and do not like what to be told especially when and where to work. good for them.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 6 years, 1 month ago
    Good for the Boeing employees. There was a time when we had a mail-order firm and a publishing co. An employee brought in a union organizer for the mail-order. I explained to the employees, all 18 of them, that all that would happen would be that there would be a new sizeable deduction from their paychecks, we would go from salary, which allowed for adjustable hours as long as the work got done, to hourly paychecks and a time-clock. To no avail. Turned out that the publishing firm was growing while the mail-order was stagnant. Add to that, the aggravation of dealing with the union. So -- we closed the mail-order firm, sold the inventory and concentrated our efforts on publishing. !8 people lost their jobs and life goes on.
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