Saint FDR was quite the socialist...social security was just the first of many changes he had hoped to implement had the war not intervened.

During the Depression, he ordered the banks closed, ostensibly to give the banks a chance to catch their collective breath. In reality, it was the opportunity for federal agents to seize gold from safety deposit boxes, which was illegal to own in anything other than jewelry form at the time.

Executive Order 6102.
Bears a striking resemblance to Directive 10-289, wouldn't you say?

...and you keep what you don't need for immediate use in the safe or in speedloaders or stripper clips in the back of the closet.

They should choose to leave the EU at the same time. The EU would suffer almost as much as Greece. It is a bad model for liberty and productivity, and it has been from the beginning.

Haha! Said Charles I to Oliver Cromwell....

Now there is a thought.

There is precedent for it. Technically, since the U.S. Treasury is the only organization legally entitled to print currency, that currency is an obligation of the U.S. Government. Now they used to print a bill called a silver certificate. If you so desired, you could walk into and chartered bank and demand a dollars worth of silver. That ended during the Nixon years (I still have a few, as I'm sure most of you do as well). Try taking one of those in and getting your silver now! So effectively, they've defaulted on that obligation. (The truth is the bill are worth more as collectibles, but I digress...)

Bravo, Vinay.
That has been the solution for a long time. In fact the US would likely have been better of if we had done so in the 1930's. That would have terminated the fed and any need for income tax. REAL Capitalism might have sprung from those bankster ashes.

And in reality, all the Greeks need to do is withdraw from the EU and default on their debt. They would make the new drachma the only recognized currency and their citizens could either trade their savings into the government at whatever inflated conversion ratio they deem appropriate or they could hold their Euros, in the hope of smuggling them out at some future date. Either way, Athens wins.

No one SHOULD led to a socialist government in the future, period.

The greek government IS bankrupt, and should just admit it. No one is going to bail them out- not the banks, not the greek citizens. The government basically just has to close down and be replaced. I am happy I dont live there or Venezuela. I am not so sure I am happy I live in the USA either, as we arent far from the same end game.

Salty: I'm not sure there's anything that will keep the government's paws out of our savings. Collectables only mean something when there's enough surplus wealth to support a market. Precious metals have been wrested from the hands of Americans before as FDR did, and could easily be done again. Real estate, like collectables, only has value when the economy is healthy, and with the absurd stretch of eminent domain for the taking of property, and explosive growth in all of the regulations that prevent changes to property, it may be a deceptive hedge. Even nominally positive things, like a change to a flat income tax, can have a negative effect on property value.

The IRS already operates on the principle of "guilty until proven innocent," and sometimes not even then. Trying to outmaneuver government agencies is a task not lightly attempted.

During the real estate bubble, I recall seeing ads that promised, "you don't need a high priced lawyer! Just download and file our forms for just $99" or some such. God alone knows how many of those blew up when the market collapsed.

I'm not an expert on these things certainly, but there are numerous caveats such as if it is a rental property, is the rent collected considered a distribution? (Yes). If you're under 59 1/2, you'd owe the tax plus a 10% penalty.

In short, talk with an attorney.

Actually, I am investing what I believe will become a very tradeable metal: lead (with a little copper and steel thrown in).

He's broken every other part of the Constitution, why not that too?

Actually, the wording in the 14th amendment says the national debt "shall not be questioned." Sooner or later somebody will enforce that by ruling that the country doesn't have to pay the debt at all -- but nobody is allowed to question whether they ever intend to.

And the more that governments are allowed to walk away from their debt, the more risky government bonds become. In the US there is virtually no risk of government default on the debt, because the President is duty bound by the Constitution to pay the national debt, even if absolutely nothing else can be paid. That's why US sovereign debt is so "desirable" to lenders.

The Greek debt was already restructured either last year or the year before. Now, they just want it forgiven -- in other words, the Greek government wants to steal from the banks that hold the debt.

Would you hold that governments cannot issue bonds, because they cannot bind their citizens to pay taxes to repay the bonds?

From the 11thC Muslim poet Omar Khayyam:

What! from his helpless Creature be repaid
Pure Gold for what he lent him dross-allay'd--
Sue for a Debt he never did contract,
And cannot answer--Oh, the sorry trade!

Jan

Similar bills have been introduced at almost every congress. They, so far, I think they never got even a hearing in a committee. It would be nice. However, I do not see the establishment wanting to change the way they operate. It is good to be the king.

SS is indeed bankrupt, but I don't see repudiation as politically possible. They'll sooner print the money, just as other banana republics do, and let the Chinese scream.

This idea has serious practical problems. It would get them kicked out of the EU at least. But I like the idea.

I only wish it would mean that nobody would ever willingly lend to a national government again; that may be the only way to stop them from spending the money of future generations. But as Davidson and Rees-Mogg point out in "The Great Reckoning", there are plenty of other bankers out there, eager to do business.

JLC, the matter of taxation to pay off national debt is a separate issue from the contractual issue of the debt itself. The debt is a contract between the government of a country and its people. Taxation is a matter determined by the contract between the people and the government. In the case of the US, it is the Constitution that sets the contract, based on ratification by the Congress and by the States. Whether or not that constitutes a contract between the US government and me is another issue.

Good advice, Salty. I was thinking of the last mentioned in your list, since the first two presume a high level of productivity remains. But while I know that it is theoretically possible to do this, I am not sure of the cost of doing it to DrZ.

Oxymoron of the day: Sympathetic IRS.

Jan

The short answer is yes, provided by tangible you mean collectables, precious metals or real estate. On a cautionary note, get a lawyer involved...mistakes in this arena are very costly and you'll find that the IRS is not inclined to be sympathetic.

I love how liberals consider raising taxes as part of an austerity program.

I agree with the strength of contractual deals. But what contract did I make? Even were I to agree that taxation were legitimate; even were I not to argue that our current rate of taxation were necessary; where is the correlation between 'my money', 'how I think it should be spent' and 'how it actually got spent'?

A contract presumes power on both sides - to achieve or fail to achieve. I do not have that power, yet I am obliged to pay for the failure to achieve.

Jan