Barry Goldwater on Religion and Politics
On religious issues there can be little or no compromise. There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on one's behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both.
I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in "A," "B," "C" and "D." Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me?
And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of "conservatism."
Speech in the US Senate (16 September 1981)
I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in "A," "B," "C" and "D." Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me?
And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of "conservatism."
Speech in the US Senate (16 September 1981)
Don't trust or rely on ANY generalizations (it's a good idea, even if you see the humor in the assertion.)
As for gays and lifespans, I guess if you include all gays who have gotten AIDS and died of it or complications, the average lifespan might be shorter, but if you don't have an equivalent forcing influence for heteroes, you're just begging the question.
Or as the old saying goes, "Married couples do NOT live longer... it just Feels Like It."
Like any other statistical 'argument' you need to ask what data were deliberately left out in order to prove your point...
Which is what my 7th Law is all about...
http://www.plusaf.com/falklaws.htm#7th
Like Natural Rights and the Bill of Rights... I can't understand why more folks can't understand that ALL such 'rights' exist ONLY in that people AGREE that they ARE "rights" and that, to be permitted to live in their society and culture, FOLLOWING the Belief that those Rights should/must be Followed is the price everyone must pay to participate in the society or culture!
Folks that don't agree to follow those Rules have it made very clear that By Consensus and Agreement, a gang of Others will arrest them and remove them from active participation IN that society and culture.
Natural Rights?! Bullshit. The World operates from Agreement, and sometimes we humans agree to do stupid things.
Most religious leaders proclaim that their God Created Our Universe "because nothing else could."
Wonderful logic. For a five-year-old, but not something that comes out of the cerebral cortex of an adult brain. Circular logic as its basis.
Socratic inquiry, one of my favorite indoor sports, just has a field day with religion as well as Political and Economic beliefs and their 'believers.'
Often seen when the "Morality Card" is played in a discussion, per my 47th Law...
http://www.plusaf.com/falklaws.htm#47th
The second link, to me, a fairly non-militant atheist, looks like little more than what a friend calls a 'self-licking ice cream cone.' ... the Proverbial (pun intended) "it's true because the Bible says it's true and the Bible says it's true because it's true and it's in the Bible !"
... for Believers who don't get dizzy from spinning circular logic on innocents... :)
:) Yeah, right...
"It's my purpose to tell the truth based on Jesus direction. I maybe a minority, but so was Ayn in her day."
Yep, and I felt the same way about Werner Erhard and 'est' for several years after I found that it was a wonderful enhancement to my life and my relationships and my thinking.
Then I got over it, lived by many of the tenets and suggestions and have had a wonderful life.
My step-grandson, 14, wanted to watch the video about L. Ron Hubbard, Dianetics and Scientology and I watched most of it with him.
Erhard used a lot of the same 'mind-fucking' techniques as Hubbard did, but apparently never collected as much wealth or properties for the Organization as Hubbard and his followers.
J, you can spread The Word as much as you like, but yes, you'd also better be ready for some pushback, and not all of it gentle or pleasant.
WT folks get a LOT of 'fun' when they sell to me. Usually an hour or two of me asking them questions they can't or don't want to explore.
...One of my favorite outdoor sports.
I'm VERY lucky I took the est Training and grateful for what I got from it, but I'm also happy I'm no longer the 'est-hole' I was.
I have seen a chart, in matrix form, showing how each person was categorized. We are all familiar with the yellow Star of David badge for Jews. But there were badges for each category. For example there was a badge for Jews, a badge for homosexuals, but also a badge for Jewish Homosexuals.
They imprisoned Socialists (even though they themselves were Socialists, and the German Socialist Party had helped Hitler win power and joined the Nazis in forming his first, coalition government), Communists, Gypsies, anyone with birth defects, the insane, members of the religions that opposed them, among others.
One looks back and asks, how could this happen in Germany, at that time probably the most liberal and best educated of all European nations.
Sadly, it did happen there. And it could happen here if we are not vigilant about our rights.
If there is, as you suggest, only a "superficial" difference, I would suggest you ignore the basic beliefs of both systems (which are undeniably different) and are instead trying to compare the outward trappings and ceremony of Christianity with those of the pseudo-religion the Nazis tried to create as a means of controlling the German people.
He used religion like most, as a tool to manipulate people. Since the population of Germany was christian, he let them assume the nazi party was. He convinced the pope and others he was a "believer".
So, how was Hitler using christianity as a means to garner support from the catholic church and to gain control over the country different that this thread, asserting that it is christian values that have provided the growth and "goodness"in the US? He says Jews are bad. I suspect Hitler had no use of gays either. Now...read back to the beginning of this thread...gays and sex out of wedlock are bad...
The Westboro Baptist Church is one extreme, and this thread is another on exactly the same vector, for exactly the same reasons.
There are a litany of examples of bad behavior on the part of christianity. It seems hitler just used it to manipulate fools, but wasn't really a believer. Still not a very good example in favor of christiany.
So...let's move on to
Restoring ancient Germanic sites and rewriting tradition and history were just tools for him to mislead the people. Similarly, his henchmen forged documents and planted phony artifacts to show the 'evil lies' of the Jews. Many have been exposed, but some continue to circulate.
And no, Hitler did not claim any religion. He openly admired the hold that religion- specifically the Catholic Church- had on believers and he and his henchman tried to emulate that.
While Hitler thought it best to wait until after victory was assured, his henchman began demanding that Naziism become the state religion. Hanns Kerrl, Minister of Church Affairs, went so far as to claim "Adolf Hitler is the true Holy Ghost!"
The Nazi hierarchy couldn't decide whether to promote a new version of Christianity incorporating their beliefs, something they called "positive Christianity", or to develop an entirely new, Nazi creed from a mixture of pagan Germanic mythology and metaphysics. Either way this 'religion' was to inspire awe, subservience and adoration for Hitler.
As Dr. Robert Ley, head of the German Labor Front, told a group of Hitler youth, "We believe on this earth solely in Adolf Hitler.... We believe that God has sent us Adolf Hitler."
To your point, I doubt that many would want to claim Hitler today as one of their own. I am not sure how you define "little question"; however the facts are clear; they not only question, but refute the specious claim that he was a Christian. Beyond that, we can agree that it is inconvenient for Hitler to now "claim he was a Christian".
Let's get back to Mr. Goldwater's remarks.
The United States has a rich heritage of religious leaders involved in political debate extending back to the founding of the first colonies.
It has been said, rightly, that our revolution was born from the sermons of many preachers, expounding on individual rights from their pulpits. Religious leaders aided our success in the revolution, and were at the forefront of the abolitionist movement, the right of women to vote and the Civil Rights movement.
Religious leaders- priests, rabbis, ministers- have always enjoyed the same rights as every other American citizen to voice their opinion and vote. And it would be wrong to suggest that their rights of free speech cannot be exercised from the pulpit.
At the time Mr. Goldwater made these remarks, some religious leaders had banded together to form Political Action Committees intent of forcing their moral interpretation and views on variety of topics on political figures. A powerful political bloc, they were threatening candidates who did not, as Mr. Goldwater said, follow "their position 100 percent".
Mr. Goldwater rightly protested the undue influence these self- appointed arbiters of morality.
As Conservatives and Libertarians, we hold- as did Mr. Goldwater, the Founding Fathers and others, that we alone are the masters of our lives and our beliefs.
You mean no religion will claim Hitler is one of them? ... How convienent. There is little question Hitler would claim he was a christian.
As to the Founders, you might want to revisit your source for the statement that "Most of them were Deists...."
A few examples, in their own words:
John Adams: "The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity."
Samuel Adams: "I . . . [rely] upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins."
Charles Carroll: "On the mercy of my Redeemer I rely for salvation and on His merits, not on the works I have done in obedience to His precepts."
Alexander Hamilton: "I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ.”
John Hancock: "Sensible of the importance of Christian piety and virtue to the order and happiness of a state, I cannot but earnestly commend to you every measure for their support and encouragement."
Patrick Henry: "Being a Christian… is a character which I prize far above all this world has or can boast."
John Jay: "Mercy and grace and favor did come by Jesus Christ, and also that truth which verified the promises and predictions concerning Him and which exposed and corrected the various errors which had been imbibed respecting the Supreme Being, His attributes, laws, and dispensations."
Thomas Jefferson: "I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
Benjamin Rush: "The Gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life."
Roger Sherman: "God commands all men everywhere to repent. He also commands them to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and has assured us that all who do repent and believe shall be saved…."
Are you beginning to sense a pattern? I can go on, but don't take my word for it: do you own research.
No other nation on Earth at the time, and few since, have enjoyed a society as open as the United States.
Sadly, beginning in the early 20th century, Progressives have- with some success- supplanted our God-given (call it natural, if you like) individual liberty with centralized control reminiscent of the worst Kings, Princes and Dictators.
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