Not going to let me off the hook, are you? OK, I'm working on it. Might take me a while though.

The book wasa very intresting, lavishly documented, referenced and backed up, thatbrings together a whole bunch of little things no one can explain, and connects discontinuities most people dismiss as unimportant, but it does make good sense. What better way to control people than to just have your own priests who tell the subjects what to do a "holy word". It is exactly what we see today in politics, who knows, religion may jsu be early politics and manipulation. It explains a lot, and addresses the whole Flood thing too. I could never figure the Noah thing and how he got 2 cockroaches and 2 mosquitos etc...

alright, here's what you do. Up in the right hand corner is a button that says "start a discussion" click on it and a box will open. Give your post a title, copy and paste a URL if there is one and then frame up the discussion under the "Notes" section. If you want add a picture by clicking on the camera icon and then finding a picture saved in one of your files. ok-now you have no excuse :)

Ha ha h.. um... oh... you're serious... umm... yeah... bout that... see...

Actually, I was just realizing yesterday... I just have no idea how to create a post. Guess I'll have to figure it out. But it's been such a good excuse so far.
Edit; clarity

well, put on your armor and go for it!

Nickursis:
Interesting statement.
Count me in on your alien comments... I am too a proponent... like jump started by alien DNA in the course of evolution...

Has anybody pursued this line on any other posts you've seen? I have enjoyed pissing off some friends on facebook when those pledge of allegiance posts come around by telling them that a country that is worth pledging allegiance to needs no pledge of alllegiance. I have not, however, been able to stir up any debates.

I absolutely agree. I keep trying to tell the world, "Please, Please, go have your religion, believe in what you will, just stop ramming it down my throat". Doesn't seem to work. From an Objectivist view, I lean towards the Phd who wrote "We have Never been Alone", and who explained how all the great religions could be just aliens who had a butt ton of technology and who did a little genetic engineering to make some nice slave races. Break them up into their own little districts, then try to explain to the savages what to do and why, and you need an interface. Here come the priests. They tell you what to do, when to do it, and how. Sort of like today. No proof needed, "God" tells you what to do. His priest tells you what to do. These beings get rowdy and start fighting,so you have the wars of biblical times. Take this dude YVHY (Yahvee) who takes his boys out, gives them a whole bunch of rules and stuff, and gets pissed when they can't seem to follow them for a day or two. Then Marduke (another one of them) has his gang in the same place that YVHY wants to put his, and they have a little war. Sodom and Gomorrah ended up on the wrong side of an alien disagreement over some resources or whatever. There is enough factual (read legend, stories, history, writings) to at least make this whole idea as supportive as any other. Since no one can explain how "civilization" just popped up about 6-8 thousand years ago, from almost nothing, and started to slap together some damn big ziggurats, I am open to any theory that can take some facts from history and explain it. And in light of our current civilizations propensity to manipulate communications, twist facts to match their reality, and use their religion to justify all kinds of means things to others, I am OK with the alien idea. It fits a lot of facts and connects a lot of unrelated events. It explains why the Church has been able to get away with all kinds of "sin" for 2,000 years, and yet God doesn't seem to mind. And why a huge herd of neobarbarians can claim their God tells them to kill me, and "my God" says "love thy neighbor" etc, even as he stabs you. Religion is a tool used by the churches to manipulate people to do what serves them best. Some are good, no doubt, but I believe religion has done more damage to individuals than it has ever helped. Please don't weird out on me over the alien idea, I just offer it as an alternative to explain what facts are there..It doesn't matter, they hauled ass out of here a couple thousand years ago. And really, ever since then, the "priest" caste" has been riding our collective asses into the ground.

I was going to ask non-mooch, but since this thread went a little deeper, what about the blind acceptance and faith in say patriotism (respect for teh flag, saying the pledge of allegiance, supporting our troops, firefighters, police) ? plenty of those posts in here too

I understood... :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azxoVRTw...

:)

Coal digger, faith also exists because of the need to feel there is help available when we find ourselves in situations where we feel we have no control, especially when there are people aligned against us.

In fairness to the christians, i brought up the issue with respect to Barry Goldwater. The religious right has destroyed the Republican Party, something that Rand predicted, and they have not advanced pro-freemarket policies one iota, but they have pushed many anti-freedom policies - medicare part B, Patriot Act, just to name two.

I am fascinated by all the time before I was born and wonder how the world was able to get along without me.

I am afraid of all that time before I was born - it was horrible

Well said. +1. Perhaps then we can stop the bleeding in our bible bullet wounds.

In my mind, religion only exists in place of reason because of the fear of death. All the morality, all of the social ethics we need can be fulfilled by reason. The promise of life after death is too good for most of mankind to pass up. They are more than willing to suppress any parts of the reasoning process that will not allow them to have faith in their concept of heaven. This is the barrier that Objectivism has not been able to overcome and it is formidable indeed.

Great post. I have been thinking about making a post like this myself. What I notice is that it is never the atheists who bring up the subject of faith, it is always the Christians. And the Christians proceed to beat everyone else relentlessly trying to prove they are true Objectivists and Christians.
I will never understand this. I am not an atheist, and I accept that to be 100% Objectivist I would need to be atheist, because the principles of Objectivism do not include faith in anything without rational proof. But I am 100% engaged in the Gulch, and even believe if there is ever a real physical Gulch I will be a valued member.
My point is that it's not the atheists who seem to keep injecting this argument into the discussion. Why can't the religionists keep religion out of the Gulch?

I'm gettin ready to push you on a comment you made. :) lovingly of course. I have to think it out a little first

Many many many many many times.......

Hahaha, quite. Those should be their nicknames.

I'm not a religious person and have not felt compelled to be so. My parents never had me baptized, leaving the choice to me, should I want to, as an informed adult. I have no problem if someone is. Just don't expect to sway me to that viewpoint. My minister uncle has tried for years to no avail. On this forum, it strikes a dissonant chord when discussing things from a viewpoint of logic. Then the discussion devolves into indignant name calling, pulpit thumping and generally heated diatribes, with nothing resolved or accomplished in any positive manner.

I agree with RMP's request to refrain from arguing about religion because no one will have a satisfactory engagement. I think that there are a plethora of other sites on which to discuss religion and it's application to whatever the commenter thinks its value is. From an objective point of view, it just comes across as an irrational belief in an entity for which there is no proof. On that note, I will close. I enjoy the discourse here with many, but religion is something I will leave out of it.

Respectfully,
NMA

Yes...they are used to thinking they're right and anyone who would even question their beliefs must be evil. They should think long and hard about what's being said. I was conditioned from birth...it's a difficult haul to unload.

Thanks, convert is not exactly the word I would use. I hope that some have enough interest in reason or hold onto enough of it to at least dig farther into the facts. I also want them to know that people do not agree with them. I want them to feel the dissonance and hopeful that will spur them to think more about these issues.

did you catch my misspelling of debunk? lol