Morality: Who Needs It?
I saw jdg's comment yesterday, and I thought this would make a great discussion. My point here is to distinguish Objectivist Ethics from Libertarian Ethics and Western religions' Ethics So, thanks jdg for sparking the topic, here's your comment:
"Morality *is* nothing more than taste -- each person defines his own. This doesn't mean no one should bother having one; it means we all should choose carefully, since your moral code determines how far (and by whom) you can be trusted -- and even if there is neither hell nor karma, there is reputation.
The philosophy of liberty implies assuming that other people are adults, who know this and can each handle its consequences for themselves. Christianity (and other western faiths), while they superficially seem to support similar moral views, assumes that we are all not adults but sheep, who need a shepherd to lead us. I find that view absolutely abhorrent."
and here is the Objectivist response:
"My morality, the morality of reason, is contained in a single axiom: existence exists—and in a single choice: to live. The rest proceeds from these. To live, man must hold three things as the supreme and ruling values of his life: Reason—Purpose—Self-esteem. Reason, as his only tool of knowledge—Purpose, as his choice of the happiness which that tool must proceed to achieve—Self-esteem, as his inviolate certainty that his mind is competent to think and his person is worthy of happiness, which means: is worthy of living. These three values imply and require all of man’s virtues, and all his virtues pertain to the relation of existence and consciousness: rationality, independence, integrity, honesty, justice, productiveness, pride." Galt's Speech, Atlas Shrugged
The key here is that reason is man's only tool for knowledge, and that morality is objective. Certainly man makes choices, and he either consciously makes wrong choices or within his limited knowledge makes wrong choices. Objectivism rejects that morality is a "matter of taste." One could make the argument that man is always at the mercy of his limited knowledge and so therefore cannot know morality completely, therefore is destined to either fail or that morality cannot be properly defined so that it is different from one man to the next without some divine source bestowing morality onto man. To that, here is a response:
"Today, as in the past, most philosophers agree that the ultimate standard of ethics is whim (they call it “arbitrary postulate” or “subjective choice” or “emotional commitment”)—and the battle is only over the question of whose whim: one’s own or society’s or the dictator’s or God’s. Whatever else they may disagree about, today’s moralists agree that ethics is a subjective issue and that the three things barred from its field are: reason—mind—reality."Objectivist Ethics, The Virtue of Selfishness
Is morality/Ethics objective or subjective? If objective, then can we gain knowledge of morality scientifically?
"Morality *is* nothing more than taste -- each person defines his own. This doesn't mean no one should bother having one; it means we all should choose carefully, since your moral code determines how far (and by whom) you can be trusted -- and even if there is neither hell nor karma, there is reputation.
The philosophy of liberty implies assuming that other people are adults, who know this and can each handle its consequences for themselves. Christianity (and other western faiths), while they superficially seem to support similar moral views, assumes that we are all not adults but sheep, who need a shepherd to lead us. I find that view absolutely abhorrent."
and here is the Objectivist response:
"My morality, the morality of reason, is contained in a single axiom: existence exists—and in a single choice: to live. The rest proceeds from these. To live, man must hold three things as the supreme and ruling values of his life: Reason—Purpose—Self-esteem. Reason, as his only tool of knowledge—Purpose, as his choice of the happiness which that tool must proceed to achieve—Self-esteem, as his inviolate certainty that his mind is competent to think and his person is worthy of happiness, which means: is worthy of living. These three values imply and require all of man’s virtues, and all his virtues pertain to the relation of existence and consciousness: rationality, independence, integrity, honesty, justice, productiveness, pride." Galt's Speech, Atlas Shrugged
The key here is that reason is man's only tool for knowledge, and that morality is objective. Certainly man makes choices, and he either consciously makes wrong choices or within his limited knowledge makes wrong choices. Objectivism rejects that morality is a "matter of taste." One could make the argument that man is always at the mercy of his limited knowledge and so therefore cannot know morality completely, therefore is destined to either fail or that morality cannot be properly defined so that it is different from one man to the next without some divine source bestowing morality onto man. To that, here is a response:
"Today, as in the past, most philosophers agree that the ultimate standard of ethics is whim (they call it “arbitrary postulate” or “subjective choice” or “emotional commitment”)—and the battle is only over the question of whose whim: one’s own or society’s or the dictator’s or God’s. Whatever else they may disagree about, today’s moralists agree that ethics is a subjective issue and that the three things barred from its field are: reason—mind—reality."Objectivist Ethics, The Virtue of Selfishness
Is morality/Ethics objective or subjective? If objective, then can we gain knowledge of morality scientifically?
Previous comments... You are currently on page 5.
certainly another worthy question.
What separates us from animals??
We're the top of the evolutionary ladder - so what?
Just because we're a more capable animal doesn't change the fact we're still animals.
Do animals have morals? I'd say yes.
I don't want to drag the thread off topic.
if you're intent was to include "nurture" into my list of "purpose", I can go along with that, but that's an interesting addition because my list is a non-emotional list (objective) of must haves/needs.
Nurture, is an emotional (subjective) want. One persons nurture, is another's neglect.
Whether my offspring lives or dies doesn't impact my survival, only my DNA.
I can morally quantify food, I NEED 2000 calories/day.
I can quantify sex, how far can I spread my DNA?
I can't quantify nurture, how much love do I spread?
I think the constitution is a different animal in this topic. I understand what your saying but i think it also complicates the discussion.
I think you're discussing morality in a 21st century perspective and I think that clouds the discussion. in the simplest terms what is mans purpose - thats what i was addressing. my response to you, not intending to be cynical, was merely stating, happiness is icing on the cake. it isn't necessary to life. or your moral well being.
I don't intend to be a sacrificial animal, I don't think any animal does, it just happens, it's life. It's not moral or immoral. sometimes you are a bug, sometimes you're a windshield.
assuming you're not enslaved by another.
>>but in order to be purpose it must be productive work and furthers life.
further life...mine, to reproduce.
no, I don't understand how mans basic purpose is anything other than to survive and reproduce. You may feel that reduces us to nothing more than an animal, but guess what, we are. anything we achieve beyond that, is icing on the cake, bully for us.
"What is morality, or ethics? It is a code of values to guide man’s choices and actions—the choices and actions that determine the purpose and the course of his life. Ethics, as a science, deals with discovering and defining such a code.
The first question that has to be answered, as a precondition of any attempt to define, to judge or to accept any specific system of ethics, is: Why does man need a code of values?
Let me stress this. The first question is not: What particular code of values should man accept? The first question is: Does man need values at all—and why?"
there is no distinction objectively
Therefore, choosing not to have children is immoral, and once you have raised your children you have no further purpose in life.
"What ever it takes for you to achieve that goal is moral." Including robbery,rape, and exterminating members of other gene pools who compete with you for food?
morality is based on reality, it is not whatever value someone chooses. I am not immoral for eating meat. we are omnivores and animals do not have rights. therefore, vegans' claim of morality/immorality for eating/not eating meat is not based in reality, and not a valid claim.
That being said, the morality of my local culture says that it is immoral to not recycle, to be a climate denier, to endorse petroleum products. I dispute the essential 'good' of these moral objectives, but I do not deny that most of the people around me consider them a 'given'.
Let me take a pithier example: It is widely considered immoral to think that there are actually fundamental differences between the capabilities of different races or between genders. But scientific observation indicates that there are such differences: Asians are about 4 IQ points higher than Caucasians, for example. This is a case where morality is at odds with science.
Ethics, I think is more of a 'first person singular' decision: a physician could say, "I abide by the Hippocratic oath."
Jan
Jan, carnivore
I rolled across that elsewhere and added it to my to-do list, thanks.
Well, I think were on the same page. Unless I misread something.
Yes, it's a about values.
Is food moral? It's a necessity, so I don't think it counts.
the discussion breaks down into Needs and Wants.
I need air, I want a car.
Moral values are only relevant in social interactions, don't you think?
I'm trying to chew them as fast as I can.
What I posted is what others perceive to be an Objectivist Philosophy.
My point with my post is that, if a TV show is merely entertainment for those that think like us, then it's simply preaching to the choir and serves no practical purpose other than mental masturbation. It has to educate those outside of here. It has to address the argument and misconceptions the media has made against Ayn Rand, and Atlas Shrugged, etc.
Ayn Rand was a wordy, long winded person. Some of us, who started down this path late in life, don't always have time to plaster a book to our face.
One might turn their arrogance down a notch and be a teacher and perhaps point to relevant material on the interwebs.
"Galt's Gulch cannot exist without some kind of communal code/ethic/morality. " Social.
noun
principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.
synonyms:
thics, rights and wrongs, ethicality More
a particular system of values and principles of conduct, especially one held by a specified person or society.
plural noun: moralities
"a bourgeois morality"
the extent to which an action is right or wrong.
Sure, your own right and wrong are determined by you and you alone WHEN you are alone. When you are part of a society your morality is influenced by many factors including peer-pressure, laws, and faith. DBH, my faith and how I exercise it or choose not to is in no way evil by anyone's standard.
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