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Morality: Who Needs It?

Posted by khalling 10 years, 1 month ago to Philosophy
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I saw jdg's comment yesterday, and I thought this would make a great discussion. My point here is to distinguish Objectivist Ethics from Libertarian Ethics and Western religions' Ethics So, thanks jdg for sparking the topic, here's your comment:

"Morality *is* nothing more than taste -- each person defines his own. This doesn't mean no one should bother having one; it means we all should choose carefully, since your moral code determines how far (and by whom) you can be trusted -- and even if there is neither hell nor karma, there is reputation.

The philosophy of liberty implies assuming that other people are adults, who know this and can each handle its consequences for themselves. Christianity (and other western faiths), while they superficially seem to support similar moral views, assumes that we are all not adults but sheep, who need a shepherd to lead us. I find that view absolutely abhorrent."

and here is the Objectivist response:

"My morality, the morality of reason, is contained in a single axiom: existence exists—and in a single choice: to live. The rest proceeds from these. To live, man must hold three things as the supreme and ruling values of his life: Reason—Purpose—Self-esteem. Reason, as his only tool of knowledge—Purpose, as his choice of the happiness which that tool must proceed to achieve—Self-esteem, as his inviolate certainty that his mind is competent to think and his person is worthy of happiness, which means: is worthy of living. These three values imply and require all of man’s virtues, and all his virtues pertain to the relation of existence and consciousness: rationality, independence, integrity, honesty, justice, productiveness, pride." Galt's Speech, Atlas Shrugged

The key here is that reason is man's only tool for knowledge, and that morality is objective. Certainly man makes choices, and he either consciously makes wrong choices or within his limited knowledge makes wrong choices. Objectivism rejects that morality is a "matter of taste." One could make the argument that man is always at the mercy of his limited knowledge and so therefore cannot know morality completely, therefore is destined to either fail or that morality cannot be properly defined so that it is different from one man to the next without some divine source bestowing morality onto man. To that, here is a response:

"Today, as in the past, most philosophers agree that the ultimate standard of ethics is whim (they call it “arbitrary postulate” or “subjective choice” or “emotional commitment”)—and the battle is only over the question of whose whim: one’s own or society’s or the dictator’s or God’s. Whatever else they may disagree about, today’s moralists agree that ethics is a subjective issue and that the three things barred from its field are: reason—mind—reality."Objectivist Ethics, The Virtue of Selfishness

Is morality/Ethics objective or subjective? If objective, then can we gain knowledge of morality scientifically?



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  • Posted by 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    the pursuit of happiness....CONSTITUTION
    you are enjoying being cynical with me. that's ok, but not helpful to you objectively understanding morality.

    "Sacrificial animal. Big fish eats little fish, survival of the fittest.
    Someone is someone else's dinner. One dies so another can live. "

    you are having a party conflating concepts.
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  • Posted by $ winterwind 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    in fact, the Commandments are handed down to Moses and his people from their invisible/inaudible friend.
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  • Posted by RobertFl 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    I already said, I'm no biblical scholar, and I didn't want it to be religious. Just a bullet list of "code of conduct".

    some of what you said is due to interpretation of the commandments. which I said, I think people read way too much into them.

    Let me just take one thing and address it, cuz it intrigued me.

    >>> disorganized list of "do nots."

    I don't think they're disorganized. I wish I knew the name of the program I watch, but it was really good at discussing that. There is a historical justification for them and they made sense.

    >>> "Do nots"
    Well, maybe this is better.
    It's sort of like "pornography". I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.
    I can't tell you how to step on someones toes, but I can tell you not to do it.
    Do not kill - is there a anti way of saying that?
    Do not steal - same thing, how else would you say that.
    I follow you regarding the first 4, but those are the one's I think we read to much in to.
    Believe me, I'm no bible thumper by any means. I love history, and I believe that book (original text, not TNG) has very historical significance and we shouldn't dismiss it so easily - that's where I'm coming from.
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  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Defining Purpose as the concept that you must work to survive certainly grounds it in an objective reality. However, most of us spend little of our waking efforts on simply surviving. We establish goals for ourselves and spend large portions of our resources and efforts in attempting to achieve them. Some have sports or activities they wish to excell at, others have business and creative goals.
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  • Posted by RobertFl 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Pursue happiness???
    That seems superfluous.
    That would imply our sole purpose is to bring consciousness to the universe. Look up, go "ahhhh", and die. Not a very self sustaining business plan :-)

    Sacrificial animal. Big fish eats little fish, survival of the fittest.
    Someone is someone else's dinner. One dies so another can live.

    I don't think it's anti life at all.
    Basic, basic, basic. you have to eat, or you're suicidal. You have to protect yourself, or you're someone else's dinner, happiness is reproducing (or trying like hell).

    Happiness is a warm gun - John Lennon :-)
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  • Posted by 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    I would say there is a more scientific way of building an Ethical construct for yourself. Ex: "respect the planet" the planet does not have rights to respect. Yet every farmer understands objectively that if he overworks the land or eats his seed corn, he will not eat at some point in the future. The first 4 commandments are all about not questioning or supporting indoctrination [edited to add] and yet every government in the deism of saving the planet, ruins thousands upon thousands of acres of forest to massive forest fires every year, because the forests are not privately managed.
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  • Posted by RobertFl 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    I wasn't implying you drop the baby and move on. Nurturing the offspring is a vital part of ensuring your DNA survives.
    That nurturing fits in with..
    Food
    Defense
    Sex
    until the offspring can mange that themselves.
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  • Posted by RobertFl 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Without getting into the godly aspect, because I don't want this to be about "religion". Religion is about adherence to someone's interpretation of a philosophy.
    The origin of the commandments for the purpose of this discussion, is not relevant.
    Whether the commandments were heavenly, or mortal makes no difference. Just evaluate them for what they are.

    I was watching a show on history or something that looked at this mainly from a Historical stance and showed how commandment 5-10 were transgressions by man on others that lead to a break down of society.
    Coveting, leads to theft, which can lead to murder, etc.
    I look at these and say, "respect each other".

    Where commandment 1-4 were transgressions against god (regardless of your definition of god), I can look at that and say," respect the planet, remember your place in it, there is nothing more them me, don't idol it."
    I really believe the "idol" clause is pretty much saying, the universe is it, there is nothing greater then it, don't pray to magical deities - there are none.
    These 10 commandment (moral codes) made for a functional community.

    Is "Commandment" (by definition) any different than "Law" that our police uphold?
    A rose by any other name...

    >Should you honor a bad mother and father?

    I don't think that's fair. If your parents did not act honorably, then I would say, you are under no obligation.

    >Hank Rearden committed adultery. Was he acting immorally?

    Yes. Did it dishonor him, or his family? If it affected no one else, then it wasn't immoral.

    Biblically (time, not text) Adultery could lead to offspring which could cloud inheritance and property rights. Which can be a big problem for a small village.
    If the first son is a bastard, then who inherits their fathers property upon his death?
    Getting caught with your neighbors with can get you killed also.
    Of the simplest, of simplest laws can go, the 10 commandments achieve this, and it didn't require law degrees to interpret, it was easy for a village elder to make determinations.
    Today, we don't have these problems, mainly because we consider ourselves educated and enlightened people capable of acting in a civil and responsible manner.
    Instead of being ordained by a legislative body, they were cast in stone by some greater power.
    Morally, ethically, and functionally, what's wrong with them as a "code of conduct"?
    Forget religious interpretation (Remember the Sabbath and sit on a hard wooden bench for hours and listen to someone babble endlessly wondering why you ever gave up cutting yourself)
    Everyone gets hung up over the religious connotations of the 10 commandments and I think that's wrong. It's just a law, just like our laws today. they just happen to be "moral" law.
    We wouldn't ask our gov't to make a moral law (although they do). But in order to have a civil society, WE have to have a common code of conduct. Why doesn't the 10 commandments minimally fill that bill.
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  • Posted by $ winterwind 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Actually, Robert, in your "house on fire" example, you're spot on in the first 2 examples. The Libertarian would think, then act accordingly.
    If he's on the way to his chemotherapy appointment, stopping wouldn't cross his mind.
    If he's out for a walk, and it's late summer, and he knows that with no house, you're going to be cold in the winter and he doesn't want a valuable member of his society to be both cold and desperate, he'd probably stop, and say "Let's throw some water on that."
    The choices are endless, and they are all the result of one thing: conscious thought.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    There is an evil study from Nazis, where they withheld any affection and stimulation for babies. But they fed them and kept them warm. They died.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    It is to pursue happiness. This concept makes your life into a duty, a sacrificial animal. This is anti-life, actually
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  • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Really? What if you like self flagellation? What if the other is Hitler or Stalin or Mao. How does this get to reason being a value or productive work?
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  • Posted by $ winterwind 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    There's that word again: feels. People who make decisions based on their feelings are often wrong, usually hopeless, and eventually doomed.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    I'll just address the last statement you made. (btw, I did not down point you) You offer a bucket of water to your neighbor because it is in your rational self interest to do so. You would want help if your house was on fire. However, to indiscriminately give for the sake of giving isn't compassionate because you might be giving to addiction, etc. You need to discern. I have known people to give away close to their last dollar and then turn around and ask for money. Rational self interest
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  • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Either you are religious or you have no idea what you are talking about. First of all the 10 commandments are a disorganized list of "do nots." Second it demands obedience to the irrational - god. Third it endorses slavery. Fourth it is an affront to reason and reality. Fifth it demands blind obedience to parents. As an ethical system it is part of a cult of death.
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  • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    You really do not seem to understand Objectivism. Have you read any of the nonfiction books?
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  • Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Robert, AJ is not right. Morality is about values. Is food a value even if you are not in a group? Of course. Is an animal or virus or a bacteria that is killing you bad whether you are in a group or not? Of course

    You might want to read The Virtue of Selfishness.
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    Posted by dbhalling 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    AJ you do not understand morality. Morality is not about a collection of people it is about logic and reason (not faith). Morality is about values. Those things that further my life as a man qua man are good and those that inhibit or work against that are evil - like faith.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    "Objectively, farting feels good, so you do it.
    Subjectively, you don't fart in an elevator...unless by yourself.
    Ergo, morality only matters when there's a witness.
    it's social."

    thanks for the Friday laugh, Robert. Please re-read all of the Rand quotes on this post. Her answer to your farting dilemma is there
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  • Posted by 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    for starters, the first 4 Commandments have no basis in reality. Should you honor a bad mother and father?
    Hank Rearden committed adultery. Was he acting immorally?
    Bottom line: the 10 commandments are...wait for it...commandments. They are not vetted in reason or objectivity. They are handed down by God to man. It is a lousy way of building a logical philosophy of life.
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  • Posted by RobertFl 10 years, 1 month ago
    Ya know, if a gulch TV show does happen, this very topic could make for a number of episodes.
    What is the moral/ethical code in the gulch?
    Do neighbors help neighbors, or do they just scream, "Get of MY lawn" at each other?
    Is there such a thing as volunteering in the gulch?
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