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Morality: Who Needs It?

Posted by khalling 10 years, 1 month ago to Philosophy
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I saw jdg's comment yesterday, and I thought this would make a great discussion. My point here is to distinguish Objectivist Ethics from Libertarian Ethics and Western religions' Ethics So, thanks jdg for sparking the topic, here's your comment:

"Morality *is* nothing more than taste -- each person defines his own. This doesn't mean no one should bother having one; it means we all should choose carefully, since your moral code determines how far (and by whom) you can be trusted -- and even if there is neither hell nor karma, there is reputation.

The philosophy of liberty implies assuming that other people are adults, who know this and can each handle its consequences for themselves. Christianity (and other western faiths), while they superficially seem to support similar moral views, assumes that we are all not adults but sheep, who need a shepherd to lead us. I find that view absolutely abhorrent."

and here is the Objectivist response:

"My morality, the morality of reason, is contained in a single axiom: existence exists—and in a single choice: to live. The rest proceeds from these. To live, man must hold three things as the supreme and ruling values of his life: Reason—Purpose—Self-esteem. Reason, as his only tool of knowledge—Purpose, as his choice of the happiness which that tool must proceed to achieve—Self-esteem, as his inviolate certainty that his mind is competent to think and his person is worthy of happiness, which means: is worthy of living. These three values imply and require all of man’s virtues, and all his virtues pertain to the relation of existence and consciousness: rationality, independence, integrity, honesty, justice, productiveness, pride." Galt's Speech, Atlas Shrugged

The key here is that reason is man's only tool for knowledge, and that morality is objective. Certainly man makes choices, and he either consciously makes wrong choices or within his limited knowledge makes wrong choices. Objectivism rejects that morality is a "matter of taste." One could make the argument that man is always at the mercy of his limited knowledge and so therefore cannot know morality completely, therefore is destined to either fail or that morality cannot be properly defined so that it is different from one man to the next without some divine source bestowing morality onto man. To that, here is a response:

"Today, as in the past, most philosophers agree that the ultimate standard of ethics is whim (they call it “arbitrary postulate” or “subjective choice” or “emotional commitment”)—and the battle is only over the question of whose whim: one’s own or society’s or the dictator’s or God’s. Whatever else they may disagree about, today’s moralists agree that ethics is a subjective issue and that the three things barred from its field are: reason—mind—reality."Objectivist Ethics, The Virtue of Selfishness

Is morality/Ethics objective or subjective? If objective, then can we gain knowledge of morality scientifically?



All Comments


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  • Posted by Matcha 10 years, 1 month ago
    Sorry for the spelling. I meant shouldn't be discussed. It's hard to proof read in the little box.
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  • Posted by Matcha 10 years, 1 month ago
    Beautifully written. Just one comment. Most science and religion is not absolute truth. Science like religion is our best explanation of things we seek to explain. Since we need a moral code couldn't religion serve a purpose? Religious adults are not idiots. I remember my Mother stating after church that the minister wasn't going to tell her what to think. To be an athiest now seems almost like their religion to me. They are insulting if you disagree and want to treat you like you couldn't possibly have enough intelligence to have already thought of their arguments yourself. Mostly they like to make a snide comment and have you keep quiet. If you argue they decide that religion should've be discussed.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    well the reason behind "lie, cheat, steal" is actually force being used against one person to another's gain. this is straightforward logic. If you are being lied to, the liar has the benefit of knowledge they are withholding from you to encourage you to act/not act in your rational self-interest
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  • Posted by $ jdg 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Most of them can get you beheaded in Saudi Arabia or the ISIS state.
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  • Posted by Bob44_ 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Who are you to criticize where a person gets his morality. Better that you develop the code by which you live your life and better yet, keep it to yourself.
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  • Posted by Bob44_ 10 years, 1 month ago
    Who needs morality? We all do. We must all adopt a code by which we live our lives. That code comes from experience, education and reason.
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  • Posted by $ sjatkins 10 years, 1 month ago
    Ethics is for living one's life the most effectively and abundantly in every way one values. That is its purpose. If all ethics are subjective then this implies there is no particular way of living one's life that is superior to any other in gaining and keeping a truly abundant high value life. If that were the case and only if that were the case would objective ethics be an impossibility.

    If one believes that reality is "real", strange as that truism sounds, then human beings have a specific nature and thus a specific set of condition upon their most abundant and fulfilled living.

    Ethics is for living your life to the fullest.
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  • Posted by woodlema 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    "Societies like those start to come apart at the seams when the rulers lie, cheat, and steal so much that the average person no longer sees the state as making people's rights more secure than they would be if the state didn't exist. "

    Yes, BUT.....where does the definition of "lie, cheat steal" come from and who determines it is bad.

    Regardless of the claimed source being "God" or the 3 legged toad under the bridge, truth is truth, and good advise is good advise.

    I always take issue with people who disregard SAGE WISDOM, simply because it was quoted from a religious source.

    To practice traits like, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith,  mildness and self-control, neither makes one weak, nor stupid nor foolish, nor unreasonable. In fact rational self-interest takes advantage of each and EVERY one of those traits. Can you find any place in history where there was a punishment for such acts?
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  • Posted by $ jdg 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Has anyone else in this group compared TVOS with Robert Ringer's "Looking Out For #1"? The latter argues a very sensible moral code for practical reasons.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    As a cryonicist I can tell you that there isn't any one well-defined "instant of death" -- the body contains many different physical, chemical, and electrical processes, which stop working at different times.

    Also, historically, "death" has been defined as occurring when the doctors give up on you. Thus a swimmer who inhaled some water was "dead" in all respects -- legal and (church) moral -- until rescue breathing was invented.

    This is one of the better arguments against believing in either an afterlife or spirits/ghosts. Today's dead person may very well be revivable a century from now.
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  • Posted by nsnelson 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    I think defining terms is part of the problem in this dialogue. Rand uses some terms in different ways than I am used to, and this can cause confusion, especially among her critics who are not disposed to a charitable interpretation. I typically think of the term ‘value’ as a custom (e.g., family values), which we typically classify as good or bad; Rand means the technical ethical sense: a ‘value’ is that which one acts to gain and keep. We typically think of ‘virtue’ as moral goodness (e.g., a virtuous man has good values); Rand says, “‘Virtue’ is the action by which one gains and keeps” (AS, P3C7) one’s values. We typically think of ‘morality’ as ethics or the study of right and wrong; Rand means the system of values one chooses. In that sense, I think it can be said that some morals are subjective (many details of your code of morality depend on your personal desires and goals). But some morals can be said to be objective, derived from man's nature (e.g., A is A, man's nature is to live: so it is morally wrong to offensively end a man's life, or infringe upon his private property).
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  • Posted by $ jdg 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Red herrings all over the place on this one.

    For a society to function there needs to be a consistent set of laws, one that most people in it accept as right most of the time. But in a pluralistic country, you'll find a large number of moral codes, most of them derived from religions. And if it's a democratic country the laws are largely dictated by compromises, not principles.

    "Might makes right" is not a moral code very many people accept. But might does win fights, so it determines who actually rules and who doesn't. (One of the better arguments against God is that if He were good, He would not have made the world work that way -- we can sure see plenty of unjust results.)

    Yes, I would have tried the Nazis for genocide; I simply wouldn't have pretended that my reasons for doing so are grounded in either "God" or objective truth. I dare say most of the world would agree with my personal moral tastes on that topic.

    "It is not enough to simply say I am morality unto myself" -- ah, but everyone who has a moral code *is* saying exactly that. The only difference between me and the religious moralist is that the religious moralist is so shallow as to actually believe the religious leader when the latter writes down his own personal moral code and signs it "God". It must take incredible cheek to sign any writing "God", but they do.

    "When we look at Greece, Rome, ..." yes, a lack of morality was related to their falls, but not in the simplistic way that a religious person says so. Societies like those start to come apart at the seams when the rulers lie, cheat, and steal so much that the average person no longer sees the state as making people's rights more secure than they would be if the state didn't exist. (I'd say we have passed that point.) Attempts to teach morality (other than by example), in my view, do little or no good -- we have to see the bad people actually made to regret their actions, and more importantly, we have to see the system refrain from punishing people for actions that aren't wrong such as selling drugs. Religion is often actively harmful in this regard, especially if the religious leaders turn a blind eye to what politicians do and concentrate instead on rules like "no gay sex" which don't protect anybody's rights.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    This argument has been refuted many times. Read Richard Dawkins' "The Blind Watchmaker".
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  • Posted by $ jdg 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    This is a good case in favor of the need for a set of consistent laws, and I agree with that. But laws and morality are two different things. (I consider it morally wrong for laws to ban actions that don't violate the moral rights of another person, but that presupposes that we've agreed on a moral code, which is what I think we're attempting to do in this thread, so let's not argue circularly.)
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  • Posted by $ jlc 10 years, 1 month ago
    A small group of people can have an individual relationship with each other person in the group without the need for a moral framework - the interactions are basically feudal or tribal. You cannot build a civilization on this basis, however - just too many people. For a civilization (which is required for exponential technological growth) you need a common moral ground so that everyone knows the 'rules' of behavior.

    So to answer khalling's question as to "Why we need morality." the answer is so that morality provides a method that allows "Large groups of people to interact with each other in a positive manner."

    Insofar as 'What' those morals need to be, the most relevant body of knowledge that I know of (Game Theory) indicates that in a non-anonymous group who engage in repeated interactions, honesty, integrity, and fairness are advantages. In an interaction that is unique or anonymous, acting in an unscrupulous and immediately successful manner is the winner.

    No, I am not making this up - this is what experiments have shown. These factors should be taken into consideration in structuring a society. (It is actually effective to call for transparency, evidently.)

    Jan
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    I am someone who once denied God and chose to come back of my own free will.
    I have free will.
    I am free will.
    I am a slave to no religion or philosophy.
    God's truth has set me free.
    Jesus is the door to God.
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  • Posted by bassboat 10 years, 1 month ago
    Reason? Objective? Look outside around you. This came from nothing? That idea takes more faith than to believe that there is a creator. What man did miracles and was never refuted? Many witnesses could have come forward to refute Him but none did. I suggest that you check your facts.
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  • Posted by LibertyBelle 10 years, 1 month ago
    An excellent answer. It seems to me that many
    people (this was so long decades ago) try to say
    that morality is subjective ("There are no absolutes"
    etc., "You can't be sure", etc.), and I think a lot of
    them do it in order to have an excuse not to do what is right.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 1 month ago
    So for those who like to obfuscate and use terms that give one a headache, I thought I might simplify all of this in cave-man style.
    For life, good.
    Against life, bad.
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