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Morality: Who Needs It?

Posted by khalling 10 years, 1 month ago to Philosophy
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I saw jdg's comment yesterday, and I thought this would make a great discussion. My point here is to distinguish Objectivist Ethics from Libertarian Ethics and Western religions' Ethics So, thanks jdg for sparking the topic, here's your comment:

"Morality *is* nothing more than taste -- each person defines his own. This doesn't mean no one should bother having one; it means we all should choose carefully, since your moral code determines how far (and by whom) you can be trusted -- and even if there is neither hell nor karma, there is reputation.

The philosophy of liberty implies assuming that other people are adults, who know this and can each handle its consequences for themselves. Christianity (and other western faiths), while they superficially seem to support similar moral views, assumes that we are all not adults but sheep, who need a shepherd to lead us. I find that view absolutely abhorrent."

and here is the Objectivist response:

"My morality, the morality of reason, is contained in a single axiom: existence exists—and in a single choice: to live. The rest proceeds from these. To live, man must hold three things as the supreme and ruling values of his life: Reason—Purpose—Self-esteem. Reason, as his only tool of knowledge—Purpose, as his choice of the happiness which that tool must proceed to achieve—Self-esteem, as his inviolate certainty that his mind is competent to think and his person is worthy of happiness, which means: is worthy of living. These three values imply and require all of man’s virtues, and all his virtues pertain to the relation of existence and consciousness: rationality, independence, integrity, honesty, justice, productiveness, pride." Galt's Speech, Atlas Shrugged

The key here is that reason is man's only tool for knowledge, and that morality is objective. Certainly man makes choices, and he either consciously makes wrong choices or within his limited knowledge makes wrong choices. Objectivism rejects that morality is a "matter of taste." One could make the argument that man is always at the mercy of his limited knowledge and so therefore cannot know morality completely, therefore is destined to either fail or that morality cannot be properly defined so that it is different from one man to the next without some divine source bestowing morality onto man. To that, here is a response:

"Today, as in the past, most philosophers agree that the ultimate standard of ethics is whim (they call it “arbitrary postulate” or “subjective choice” or “emotional commitment”)—and the battle is only over the question of whose whim: one’s own or society’s or the dictator’s or God’s. Whatever else they may disagree about, today’s moralists agree that ethics is a subjective issue and that the three things barred from its field are: reason—mind—reality."Objectivist Ethics, The Virtue of Selfishness

Is morality/Ethics objective or subjective? If objective, then can we gain knowledge of morality scientifically?



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  • Posted by eddieh 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Only one is needed "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" What else is needed?
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  • Posted by RobertFl 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    What is wrong with the 10 commandments?

    I'm not religious person, or biblical scholar, but I do believe there is value in that book (although I also believe some take it too literally which is what turns many people away from it).

    Just considering the10 commandments, everything you just said was already written. Why is that not enough for our moral code?
    Is the 10 commandments objective or subjective?
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  • -2
    Posted by RobertFl 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    You're only purpose/goal in life is to reproduce. What ever it takes for you to achieve that goal is moral.
    Food
    Defense
    Sex
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  • Posted by RobertFl 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    I think AJ is right. It is social.
    If your Robinson Crusoe, all alone, you need no moral code. You can tread on no one's toes but your own.
    There is no morality of necessity.
    Man lived just fine as hunter/gatherer. Hand to mouth.
    What you're talking about is "preparedness". that goes beyond the simple foraging to conscience effort to plan.

    Is Preparedness moral, or just smart?

    Objectively, farting feels good, so you do it.
    Subjectively, you don't fart in an elevator...unless by yourself.
    Ergo, morality only matters when there's a witness.
    it's social.
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  • Posted by RobertFl 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    You are such an asset to us.

    I think that gets to my "both" response. You presented two situations in which you want to put one definition on and I don't think you can.

    >>"Ethics is an objective, metaphysical necessity of man’s survival. . . .

    Yes, I agree. The ethics of necessity. this is neither good nor evil, it's a "must".
    which answers this question, "Why does man need a code of values? " He doesn't "need" a code of values.
    Without this, you're suicidal (or just frickin stupid - low IQ is an option).

    The subjective ethics is the ethics of desire/want, not need/survival.

    >>...cannot live by theft-someone has to be productive.
    hmmm. I never really considered that, in that way, you can't steal what wasn't produced by another.

    When I look at things like this, I try to look at them from a primitive perspective, not a modern day one. Modern day just muddies the water.
    If I'm hungry, and I hunt and kill a rabbit, and I eat that rabbit. I might feel guilty that I killed it, that leads to a objective moral consideration - I had to eat, but I killed a cute bunny, I could have eaten acorns instead (subjective). Maybe, you and I were hunting the same rabbit, I got it first, I ate it, you starved and died. I could have shared it? The objective code would have been, "hooray for me, you die".
    This scenario removes the "theft" from the equation because the rabbit belonged to no one other then itself (who had no objective input into his fate)

    Ethics of compassion. This is something many Libertarians, and Objectivist's get accused of lacking. I consider myself a compassionate, and charitable person, but I struggle to understand how that fits with Liberatians/Objectivists - (this is coming from a recovering Republican).
    I'll tell you one thing, Rand Paul better get this defined before he runs for President.
    I don't think there's one person up here that isn't compassionate or charitable in some manner. But, the Libertarian/Objectists own label of "Selfish" (which I understand and agree with) doesn't help the cause.
    If your house is on fire the Conservative will make a donation to the Fire department, the Liberal will demand a government agency regulate burning in the city limits, and Libertarian will tell you, "you should throw some water on that".
    Throwing water on your house is not a necessity (subjective) to me, but it is to you (objective).
    I'd like to be the guy that at least gives you a bucket of water (objectively a good guy)

    This is why I think the question you posed is very important.

    sorry about the diatribe ... again. :-)
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    The scenario you present is a survival choice not a moral choice. Morality is entirely within the social context. Only a group (not alone) do rules matter. Rules being that which a collection of people determine to be right and wrong (their morality). Alone there simply is no need to be moral because there is no one else to infringe on (no choice to make).
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    Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 10 years, 1 month ago
    Morality is inseparably tied to ethics. Ethics are a code... a standard by which one can live and that must be reciprocal among men. One cannot live by doing anything he pleases without considering the ramifications upon others without accepting the same from others. It requires a hierarchy of values. Values must take into consideration what is in one's self interest, but it is not in one's self interest to violate the rights of others. Your reputation and the good will you expect and need in return depends upon reciprocity. It must allow for the needs of existence... yours and your neighbors... You cannot establish morality or be moral if you can harm, cheat, steal from or kill your neighbor. Morality must be universal. You would not find it moral to have your neighbor harm, cheat, steal from or kill you. Your life and your property are the necessities that maintain your existence. Your reputation built on trust and fair trade, is thus essential for dealing with others in acquiring the sustenance of life. Those you deal/trade with must reciprocate or suffer the consequences of inability to acquire/maintain their sustenance. Existence and a right to exist dictate these corollaries.
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  • Posted by MinorLiberator 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    I disagree. Morality is primarily about choices, and no social context is necessary to require that. There is a useful teaching tool in Economics called "Robinson Crusoe economics", and I believe there is an equivalent Robinson Crusoe morality: assume his desert island has seasons, and his food supply, whatever it is, goes dormant in the "winter". He can choose to ignore reality and simply eat on a day to day basic in "summer", and then starve. Or he can think ahead and also store food for the winter, and survive. That's a moral choice.
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 10 years, 1 month ago
    Morality is subjective because it is social.

    If you were alone or in a very small group there would be no need, you would know everyone or almost everyone and the base reality would suffice without making more rules. As a society expands, you know less and less of the people around you, then you become subject to the rules of the community, their laws based on their shared morality.

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  • Posted by overmanwarrior 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    I agree, I don't think there can be anything subjective about morality. Morality is not relative to a point of view. It either is, or it isn't. Nice way to break it down and put it on the table.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    I think this might address some of your points.

    "What is morality, or ethics? It is a code of values to guide man’s choices and actions—the choices and actions that determine the purpose and the course of his life. Ethics, as a science, deals with discovering and defining such a code.

    The first question that has to be answered, as a precondition of any attempt to define, to judge or to accept any specific system of ethics, is: Why does man need a code of values?

    Let me stress this. The first question is not: What particular code of values should man accept? The first question is: Does man need values at all—and why?" TVOS (same source above)

    "Ethics is an objective, metaphysical necessity of man’s survival. . . .

    I quote from Galt’s speech: “Man has been called a rational being, but rationality is a matter of choice—and the alternative his nature offers him is: rational being or suicidal animal. Man has to be man—by choice; he has to hold his life as a value—by choice; he has to learn to sustain it—by choice; he has to discover the values it requires and practice his virtues—by choice. A code of values accepted by choice is a code of morality.”

    The standard of value of the Objectivist ethics—the standard by which one judges what is good or evil—is man’s life, or: that which is required for man’s survival qua man.

    Since reason is man’s basic means of survival, that which is proper to the life of a rational being is the good; that which negates, opposes or destroys it is the evil. Since everything man needs has to be discovered by his own mind and produced by his own effort, the two essentials of the method of survival proper to a rational being are: thinking and productive work." TVOS

    I believe this above addresses the stealing question. The concept of man qua man does not allow for theft, because man cannot live by theft-someone has to be productive. Your need to survive never creates a right, but if you are otherwise a good person and you are in a situation of starving (most likely in the modern world it's because someone else is stealing and inhibiting your ability to work) you may take back from a thief. If the govt is inhibiting your ability to produce or stealing from you it is not immoral to steal them. If a crony is getting rich off of you and "steal" from them, that's not necessarily immoral. see Ragnar in Atlas Shrugged. Your other point about commerce is really about a proper and moral system of economics which is capitalism. Capitalism has an objective purpose and efficiency for determining prices: an market nor manipulated by the government.
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  • Posted by RobertFl 10 years, 1 month ago
    Very thought provoking.

    Both.
    Morality defines what our society will be. If all I care about is me, then I have zero morality/ethics.

    Galt's Gulch cannot exist without some kind of communal code/ethic/morality.

    If the attitude is, "hooray for me, up yours", then it's perfectly acceptable for me to steal from you.
    The bible says it's not stealing if I'm hungry and I eat from your crops. I can't cart away any food - that would be stealing.
    Is lying moral, or acceptable in the gulch?
    Is lying objective or subjective? You say an Apple is worth 50 cents, I say 25 cents. Is someone lying?
    You say, well, I got $X into growing it, and I expect X amount of harvest this year, ergo, they're 50 cents - objective.
    I say, I think you have too much profit margin - subjective.
    Whose wrong?
    No, you cant gain knowledge of morality scientifically, because you can't quantify it.

    @Rocky: "...that morality is subjective. If it feels good to me..."
    I might argue that, "if it feels good..." is objective. Considering "needs" not "wants" (owning an ipad feels good, so it's ok to steal it). Considering food. "I'm hungry, eating feels good" stealing it is objective - you need to eat, it isn't an option.

    --->> "My morality, the morality of reason, is contained in a single axiom: existence exists—and in a single choice: to LIVE. ..."
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  • Posted by 10 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    I hear what you are saying, and I'm not a big fan of 3 rules or 7 virtues stuff overall, but appreciate simplifying so understanding. "Purpose" is the metaphysical concept of man must work to survive. Within that framework, he will make choices personal to him, but in order to be purpose it must be productive work and furthers life. It can't be just any arbitrary thing. Welcome to the gulch
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  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 10 years, 1 month ago
    Of Reason, Purpose, and Self Esteem, Purpose stands out as the most subjective of the three. The purpose that someone pursues can be quite arbitrarily chosen. Some pursue a success in business, some pursue a golf handicap, or other goal. What one person uses their reason to achieve another might hold
    valueless.
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  • Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 10 years, 1 month ago
    Excellent post kh.

    Morality is objective. Existence exists. I don't know if we could gain knowledge of morality scientifically.

    I do think the that vast majority of people today feel (oh wo wo wo) that morality is subjective. If it feels good to me then it's good regardless of the consequences.
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