Clue: Doctors will still get paid in Vermont.

Notice how there's almost no attention given to the astronomical increase in the cost of malpractice insurance for doctors?

With universal health care the patient doesn't have to "win" a case to be covered so that cost of medical malpractice goes to zero. Actually it may go below zero because lots of conditions won't necessarily progress to where surgery might be needed.

For doctors who make mistakes there should be a reliable method to take them out of practice and if egregious enough (operating while drunk for example) jail time is appropriate.

For "pain and suffering" how else can companies be held accountable?

Tort reform is often touted as the solution. Although I disagree with much of it the documentary "Hot Coffee" has some interesting points. And for the record, anyone who is dumb enough to spill hot coffee in her lap shouldn't win a lawsuit for doing so. McDonalds didn't do anything wrong. When I buy hot coffee I expect it to be hot.

It really is tragic, all those Americans risking their lives on the high seas for a chance to live in Cuba...

Hmmmm... citing liars with agendas rather than any cognitive argument. Intellectually vacant, as usual.

"That's right, you see health care as optional and someone doesn't "need" to go to a doctor."

It is, and they don't.

if you find the cost of medicine too expensive... go to medical school.

Hmm... someone help me out here.. .what was it AR said about the word 'extremist'?

I'm not twisting what's posted here. You are placing an obligation upon someone who invested a chunk of his life and fortune, indebted himself in order to master medicine, *simply because he went to the trouble of mastering it*.

If nobody becomes a doctor because they can't make a living at it... THEN how long do you live?

It's like saying I'm obligated to brick veneer your house because I developed the skill to do so, and you need brick on your house so your neighbors won't make fun of you and force you into long, expensive therapy sessions.

There's nothing 'extremist' in what I'm saying.

Was Patrick Henry extremist when he said, "Give me liberty, or give me affordable healthcare!"?

The "public good", or "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one" has been the source of most, if not all the enslavement that has taken place throughout history.

"It's better to get folks mental health care before they shoot up schools. "

It's better still to raise them properly so they don't turn into homicidal maniacs. Oh, wait, we've rejected all the traditional values and practices of America as superficial and unimportant, the values and practices that raised the Greatest Generation.

You on the left keep changing things, experimentally, then instead of rejecting your changes as the failures they are, insist upon *more* changes in order to make society fit your idealized model.

Man has the right to life; he's born with life, and one cannot deprive a man of his life without violating his right to life. But you are under no obligation to keep him alive.

Man has the right to liberty, and you cannot deprive him of his liberty without violating his right to liberty. You cannot load him with obligations simply because he's alive or has abilities society would like to exploit, without violating his right to liberty.

Man has the right to pursue happiness, but he has no right TO happiness. No one is under any obligation to help him achieve happiness, or to hand happiness to him. To thus oblige them would violate *their* rights to liberty.

You ask: "Are you suggesting that a doctor is a murderer because he doesn't treat and cure a person on the opposite side of the planet whom he's never met?"

That's right, you see health care as optional and someone doesn't "need" to go to a doctor.

In fact the medical community is holding Americans up as if they are putting a gun to their collective heads. They raise prices because they can, not because of any competitive element that would drive prices to a fair level.

Now Vermont has put the breaks on that and taken the financial incentive out of the effort.

Doctors will still get paid though.

Your extremist twisting of what's posted sure is beginning to look disingenuous.

I will agree that the Declaration of Independence isn't the Constitution.

It's good for society to be healthy just as it is good to have clean water and waste carried away.

It doesn't need to be a "right" for it to make sense that everyone has health care.

For example: It's way better to treat infectious conditions than to let them infect others.

It's better to treat diabetes early than to chop parts of people off because of complications. It's way less expensive and those folks can remain in the work pool.

It's better to get folks mental health care before they shoot up schools.

It's better that a family is able to keep their home and remain productive rather than be marginalized over medical bills.

Absolutely I'm saying that. The doctor invested a shitload of his life and effort in order to develop his medical skills.

Are you suggesting that a doctor is a murderer because he doesn't treat and cure a person on the opposite side of the planet whom he's never met?

If not, then what's the difference between that and not treating and curing a person he's met in the same town? As I said... you're going to die. All the doctor is going to do is delay that inevitability.

Are you "okay" with watching a doctor starve to death, naked in the elements, because he doesn't have the means to provide himself food, clothing and shelter because he was obligated to give the fruit of his effort and skill to whomever desired it, gratis?

Do you have a specific example?

It's a question of WHO is doing the looting. The cost of health care rising at a phenomenal rate and nothing the public can do about it. So, it's big business that's doing the looting because they can. There is no incentive to control prices... On the contrary, even for insurance companies, rising income is what they want. Vermont has stepped in for the public to stop the looting.

Hmmmmm, sloganeering rather than any cognitive argument. Intellectually bankrupt so quickly? Figures.

So, what you are saying is that it is OK for a doctor to not treat a patient, even if it's life or death for the patient, just because the patient can't pay.

I say the doctor will be paid. Not by the patient, but they will be paid.

No. and no.

Figures don't like, but liars do like to figure...

Hate to tell you this, but military doctors... get paid... Catholic hospital doctors... get paid.
They may *choose* at some point or other not to charge for their services, but that is their *choice*.

The intimation with your "gun to the head" metaphor is that a doctor *must* treat you, whether he wants to or not, whether he is compensated, or not. And someone who *must* do something against his will is a slave.

An honest business model is one where one is compensated for the value of his expertise, his experience, his training and his time and effort. It is not an honest business model to coerce his efforts from him by tears or threats.

Believe Bloomberg? Check out: http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data/bes...

How's 'bout the World Health Organization?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Healt...

Hiraghm claims: "If I am forced to help you delay that day... one of us has become a slave."

Nobody is "forced" to be a doctor. Further, there are many examples of doctors who are not in the business of medicine. They are there to offer their expertise without the money motive. Military doctors, doctors at Catholic hospitals, the doctors at Shriner's hospitals...

Not all of medicine is run on greed.

That is a crock.

Excuse you, where's your evidence of this?
By what definition of "health care"?

Yes, if I don't eat nourishment, I die. If I don't sleep, I die.
If I don't get a free box of rubbers, I don't die.
If I don't go have the doctor shove his finger up my butt every six months, I don't die.
If I don't have my teeth cleaned periodically, I don't die.
If I don't get a new optical prescription every year, I don't die.
If I don't exercise regularly, I feel lousy and get fat... but I don't die.

There are lots of things covered by health *insurance* that are non-lethal if not done. There are lots of healthcare treatments that don't require insurance or a doctor; aspirin for a headache, a steaming bowl for blocked sinuses, a band-aid for a boo-boo, Ben-gay for a sore back.

There is no "pay me or die". You *will* die one day; that is inevitable. All healthcare treatment... ALL OF IT... goes to delaying that inevitability.

To be more accurate...

You know, pay me for my knowledge, skill, time and effort, and in exchange I will help you delay your inevitable death. You don't pay me for my knowledge, skill, time and effort... I wish you luck. If I am forced to help you delay that day... one of us has become a slave.

Imagine a housing contractor telling you, "pay me, or you can live in the street". Is that a gun to your head? No, it's you paying a contractor for his training, skill, experience and effort, which provides you a house. A house... without which... you die.

Funny thing about health care. If folks don't get it they die. So, do you consider putting a gun to someone's head and telling them to give you money to be an honest business model?

You know, pay me or die. Could that be part of the reason health care costs are rising so fast?