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Could this be our Gulch?

Posted by  $  terrycan 4 years, 4 months ago to Culture
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Pitcairn Island was made famous by the novel "Mutiny on the Bounty." Imagine the possibilities. Britain might be happy to grant it independence. Imagine a few nuclear reactors. A small ship yard and a steel mill. Some high rise living and it could work. We could truly hide in plain sight. How would you develope the island?
SOURCE URL: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/pitcairnislands/11418280/Why-will-nobody-move-to-Pitcairn-the-Pacific-island-with-free-land.html


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  • Posted by  $  allosaur 4 years, 4 months ago
    To be a hidden place, I do not think the "real" Atlantis of Ayn Rand's fiction had original residents who had to be first relocated or dealt with.
    Outer space is the place.
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  • Posted by Matcha 4 years, 4 months ago
    No. I did ask permission of the government of the country I now live in since I decided to shrug. No problem.
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    • Posted by  $  4 years, 4 months ago
      I am not sure what you mean. Did you need government permission to build a hydroelectric dam?
      What country do you live in?
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      • Posted by Matcha 4 years, 4 months ago
        Chile. Yes you do have to make application and get permission. It's a small project. It is not a problem.
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        • Posted by  $  4 years, 4 months ago
          Interesting. Are you at Galt's Gulch Chile?
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          • Posted by Matcha 4 years, 4 months ago
            No. We never even considered it. They have problems, financially. I'm not sure they secured water rights. You need to work through an attorney. There are a lot of xpats in Chile. We went to southern Chile. We just wanted to feel free to live our lives. Southern Chile has more to offer for us. There is no need to try to fit into a specific group. We just happened into one. We were just looking for a great place to live.
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  • Posted by islandgultch 4 years, 4 months ago
    there are thousand of islands in the world, many far closer to the western hemisphere, many uninhabited. I actually live on one now (though inhabited) but it is one of 62 in this country. With enough people , easy enough to buy and live on.
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  • Posted by teresitalyn 4 years, 4 months ago
    I'm happily living under the radar in Mexico in early retirement. Wouldn't want to move to cold climate. If people are going to live happily, it should be in a place where neither heating or cooling is required (or at least not much). Ecuador would probably leave you alone.
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  • Posted by  $  RobertFl 4 years, 4 months ago
    I actually like this...

    http://www.pitcairn.pn/Repopulation%20Pl...

    http://www.immigration.pn/FAQ.php

    Utility Mean expenditure per annum
    Electricity $2539.25
    Telecom $1215.58
    Store (food,beverages, hardware) $4500.00
    Medical supplies $275.24
    Freight $933.93
    Total $9464.00

    What is the average income on Pitcairn?
    It is difficult to estimate the average total income as there is no taxation and thus official records of private incomes. The average Government income is NZ$6000 per annum.

    On average how much does it cost to build a house on Pitcairn?
    Over the past 7 years some modern homes have been built by settlers. A fair estimate including importing all building materials and furnishings, and paying local contractors to build a complete home of around 160 square metres in size, to be approximately NZ$150,000.

    How much money do I need to have to move to Pitcairn?
    As per the immigration policy anyone wishing to settle on Pitcairn must have evidence of savings or assets of at least NZ$30,000.

    Is there a charge for settlement applications?
    Yes. The current fee is NZ$500.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 4 years, 4 months ago
    There is no natural protected anchorage and all visitors currently are brought ashore in small manually operated boats. Creation of a 'port' will be a massive capital cost (unless some new technology replaces normal shipping and transport.)
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    • Posted by  $  RobertFl 4 years, 4 months ago
      Is that a big deal? Ferrying, that is? Sounds like pretty good protection from outsiders.
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      • Posted by freedomforall 4 years, 4 months ago
        Yes, its a big deal.
        Unless Atlantis has only a very small population and has extremely limited import and export of goods then a good method of transportation of goods is a necessity.
        Until Atlantis has complete modern medical facilities there will be a need for fast transportation to and from Atlantis of patients and/or medical specialists and equipment.
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  • Posted by xthinker88 4 years, 4 months ago
    I think a shipyard and steel mill are probably out of the question. Where would you get the materials to make steel? There is no deep harbor. Good luck ferrying your supply of coke in on longboats from an anchored ship.

    I would think most of the work would have to be international and virtual online types of work. It could not be work that would even require any sort of even semi regular travel to client sites as I don't even think there is air service here. If you wanted to start air service you would need a plane with a range of at least 1500-2000 miles to make a trip safely from even Tahiti.

    I am wondering how deep the water is off of the island and if it would be suitable for ocean thermal energy development.
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    • Posted by sumitch 4 years, 4 months ago
      Any place picked for Galt's Gulch will need outside help unless you find enough people with the proper skills to build and run everything needed plus a location with the materials to build what's needed.
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    • Posted by  $  4 years, 4 months ago
      All very good points. This island may not be big enough. I don't know what the population maximum would be
      Still we would be creative. Scrap steel could be brought in and recycled. Machine tools imported. The Purpose of this thread is for the free flow of ideas.
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      • Posted by xthinker88 4 years, 4 months ago
        I get that. I like thinking of things like that as well. My first look is usually to find that things that could make something fail.

        I think the big impediment to any type of traditional industry on this island is that it is incredibly far from anything. I think the distances are frankly almost unimaginable.
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  • Posted by  $  Temlakos 4 years, 4 months ago
    Two problems with it. First, what shall we do about the fifty descendants of Fletcher Christian and his fellow exiles who still live there? We cannot be sure they would want a bunch of us to move there and rename Pitcairn's Island to Mulligan's Island or Galt's Island.

    Second, would not anyone moving there still be a loyal subject of Her Majesty? I realize you hope to negotiate a grant of formal independence. But can you be sure HMGov would grant it, knowing the implications?

    Nuclear reactor? Well, maybe a Pebble Bed Modular Reactor. It would have the footprint of what they would call in Britain a football field, and what we would call a soccer field. And it would easily provide all the power we would need. For forty years. During which time we would hope the owner of the plant would embark on a crash program to launch a solar-battery satellite into GEO so we could have power for all time from a simple receiving station.

    High-rise living? I assume you mean a design copying the Arcology principles of Paolo Soleri. That kind of development presents the danger of locking in particular manufacturing modes that might prove difficult to replace. Soleri never once talked of any kind of modular architectural principle, by which, once a particular part of a building becomes obsolete, you can build another module to replace it, and work around it in the meantime.

    A small shipyard? Make sure it can accommodate a ship of war. Flying the Dollar Roger. With a latter-day Viking in command. You know whom I mean.
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    • Posted by  $  Susanne 4 years, 4 months ago
      One would have to obtain permission to live there, and once there would be subject both to HM's laws and those of the colony, er, island. If you WERE permitted residency, you would then be, essentially, one of HM's subjects, and there's nothing saying that the island governor (or mayor or whatever the PIC is called) or the island cabinet couldn't ramrod a law through at their whim.

      Sketchy at best, at least from a legal standpoint.
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      • Posted by ewv 4 years, 4 months ago
        The legal situation is worse than you realize. It's a World Heritage Site and is managed by viros under their permissions for their idea of limited "sustainable" development. Any remote natural area on the planet is likely to be subject to the same scrutiny and restrictions.
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      • Posted by  $  Temlakos 4 years, 4 months ago
        As I thought.

        The OP is thinking, if enough of us move there, we can somehow take control just by our vote. Like Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh and his followers. Rajneesh evacuated the bridges of Houston, Texas, under which those people were living (I was there and I saw it), and bused them all to Antelope, Oregon. Which they all registered to vote in, and renamed the town Rajneeshpuram. But eventually the IRS came knocking on his door, and he skedaddled. His followers scattered. And the regular Antelopers reclaimed their town, and its name, and scrubbed themselves and their town off.

        I don't want to see this group follow that course.
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    • Posted by khalling 4 years, 4 months ago
      yes, those 50 remaining people on Pitcairn are creepy. There are like 10 of them who bully the rest, but the rest did nothing while the men of Pitcairn raped underage girls on the island. Most girls leave There's some interesting anthropological studies on this population.
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      • Posted by xthinker88 4 years, 4 months ago
        I think creepy is an understatement. From what I read all of the molesters are still there but living under house arrest. So 1/7 of the population cannot leave their homes and like to molest little girls.

        Personally, relocation of those guys should be to the bottom of the ocean.
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        • Posted by  $  Susanne 4 years, 4 months ago
          From the Wiki on the issue - re the current residents of .pn - and something to think about -

          (1) Children under the age of 16, even from the cruise ships, who wish to visit the island, must obtain the prior entry clearance.

          And if that's not bad enough...

          (2) The UK's Foreign and Commonwealth Office does not currently allow their staff based on Pitcairn to be accompanied by their children.

          Something to consider when relocating there. The natives are, of course, natives, VERY unlikely that HM's government would allow discriminatory action against them (regardless of how deserving they are of such treatment).

          I find it funny - when you're a few thousand miles from anyone, you live on a small island, the entire notion of "house arrest" (especially when one of the arrestees is the former mayor) is somewhat laughable - it's far more isolated than even the original Australian Settlers and convicts experienced, and that in a very small and compressed space.
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      • Posted by  $  4 years, 4 months ago
        The 50 remaining would resist any change towards Objectivism. This island may be to small. Perhaps a Social Engineer can estimate the maximum population for this island.
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        • Posted by khalling 4 years, 4 months ago
          One thing I read had to do with the size of ship that can come close to the island. The residents row out to the supply ships and cruise boats There is no protected coves for a marina or docking close
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          • Posted by  $  4 years, 4 months ago
            That is a big problem. However most problems have solution. The remote location is a blessing and a curse.
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            • Posted by jdg 4 years, 4 months ago
              Indeed, if somebody were willing to throw a lot of money at the problem, they could build themselves a good sized artificial harbor. In fact, all they'd really need is a large floating dock (assuming some way to pull it onto shore during storms). The problem, of course, is that an island that can only support a few hundred people isn't worth the trouble.

              Every solution I can think of for a small island would work better for a floating seastead city.
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    • Posted by  $  RobertFl 4 years, 4 months ago
      Money talks - if we provide the revenue to them, they rename the island whatever we ask. Besides, they can call it whatever, we can call it what we like.

      Her Majesty?? So what, they obviously pay it no mind now.

      Thorium Reactor.

      I think the question is, what do they have brought in, and why can't they produce it right there? Is the Island not capable of growing all it's own food? Lumber?
      Does it have adequate fresh water?
      what is the current cost of living?
      what will they give us to move there? land, land and house? what exactly do we have to put up?

      I'm actually very interested.
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      • Posted by  $  Temlakos 4 years, 4 months ago
        Thorium reactor. You mean, like this?

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_flu...

        Remember: thorium, unlike uranium, has no known fissile isotope. How do you get it started?

        And how do you import these radioactive materials?

        The main idea of the Gulch is a community in isolation. When Dagny crashed into it, it was already self-sufficient, except for a few supplies for which Midas Mulligan had a "pipeline" from the outside. Let's not kid ourselves. That pipeline was Ragnar Danneskjöld. It was some of his prize cargoes that he couldn't necessarily sell in Europe. Ragnar explained to Hank Rearden he had "customers" in the USA territory. Correction: one customer. Midas Mulligan.

        Now unless you're thinking we're going to hijack some thorium shipments intended for the People's State of Whatever, I recommend finding a different technique for generating electric power.
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        • Posted by  $  RobertFl 4 years, 4 months ago
          I suggested thorium because nuclear had been mentioned. Thorium is safer/cleaner and cheaper than uranium.
          Let's be realistic. that level of world isolation isn't possible.
          We can acquire outside resources and still be separated form the world.

          Perhaps we could look at tidal force for power generation.

          There are options, however, initially, you need a reliable power source while developing others. right now, the island has a diesel generator that runs for about 12 hours a day in two shifts. Their windmill ran into to cost overrun and was never completed HOW, can you have that level of incompetence or corruption on an island of 50 people, and half are retired. :-)
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          • Posted by  $  Temlakos 4 years, 4 months ago
            Just saying: when the SHTF, any community "they" know about, that same "they" will try to take over. If they can get to it.

            The best defense of the classical Gulch in AS was isolation. The secondary defense was inaccessibility.
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            • Posted by  $  RobertFl 4 years, 4 months ago
              You're thinking about a finky hitting the fan scenario.
              If that happens, no one is getting to us anyway. We'd be the last place they'd come looking for assets.
              I'm just assuming, get away from all this, let them have their parasites.
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              • Posted by  $  Temlakos 4 years, 4 months ago
                Remember: John Galt's goal was to make the finky hit the fan--by removing all those who were standing between the finky and the fan.

                I know what you're thinking. For he also said, "We started with no time limit in view. We did not know how long the collapse would take. We knew only this was how we wanted to live."

                That's all very well. I'm just saying, the looters can't stand it if anyone gets away from them. That sort of thing makes other people think, "Yeah....why don't I just...?"

                And that went triple when, after Hank Rearden finally defected, John Galt spoke for three hours on the radio, and ended by telling everybody to bug out at once!
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      • Posted by xthinker88 4 years, 4 months ago
        I doubt a thorium reactor would be needed. Much more cost effective to use ocean thermal energy technology if there is deep water close to the island. My initial assumption is that there is deep water near the island based on the high cliffs on several sides of the island. An ocean thermal system could provide electricity as well as drinking water and chilled water for enhanced agriculture. Such a system is in place as an "experimental" but functioning system in Hawaii.

        I'm wondering if the island has an aquifer. It might but I doubt it given its size. For example, the Virgin Islands have small aquifers in limited areas but they are not very usable. If rainfall is enough then rainfall harvesting could supply enough water for normal household purposes. This is currently done in the USVI.

        Things would need to be built sustainably. I'm not trying to press any objectivist buttons with environmentalist radical nonsense but I think reason dictates in this case the maximum use of all resources, the minimization and reuse of all waste to the extent possible, etc.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 4 years, 4 months ago
    I just don't go for an island. Too locked in and controllable.
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    • Posted by UncommonSense 4 years, 4 months ago
      Agreed. If I'm going to an island, I'm going back to Diego Garcia, BIOT. 7 degrees below the equator and yeah, bring your 29 spf lotion. Land crabs everywhere and lots of mahi mahi. The problem is, telling the military they need to leave.

      I guess I'm staying where Huckleberry Finn and Tom Sawyer hang out. "Today's Tom Sawyer he gets high on you and the space he invades gets by on you..."
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  • Posted by ISank 4 years, 4 months ago
    I love the beautiful blue waters of the Pacific. It's interesting to see the difference between these islands and the other South Pacific isles that have huge barrier reefs. These coast lines seem pretty rugged, understand why Mr Christian chose the isle and were I aboard the Bounty.... Well hell, maybe the Bay would have been named iSank. Not the most favorable nautical name.
    Guess I'll stick with Lanai.

    Have some fun!
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    • Posted by Abaco 4 years, 4 months ago
      Yes. Years ago I got to Fanning Island. I absolutely loved it. It is a low, reefed atoll. It has inhabitants only because it's on the equator (no hurricanes).
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  • Posted by Matcha 4 years, 4 months ago
    I am not staying on line all day. I just wanted to add in response to the post that these places don't exist yet. Yes they do already exist.
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  • Posted by Matcha 4 years, 4 months ago
    I think you all need to get together and create your community. It doesn't have to be perfect. Just work towards a goal of independent living. Just find a place with really low taxes if you want to stay in the US. Make it a gated community. In my neighborhood the seller usually vets the buyer and then you are introduced to the man who started the community. There is one way in though a guarded gate. To buy you have to stay a while to have the neighbors decide if they will have you. But really it wasn't hard. They were just looking for like minded people.
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  • Posted by Matcha 4 years, 4 months ago
    Any existing community will vet you before they let you in. In mine we already have a good structure. Also, while we use many things from the outside community it would be possible to maintain within the community. We have water and food within the community. Totally organic.
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  • Posted by macnuth 4 years, 4 months ago
    One huge issue that has to be remembered is in the movie Galt invents a power supply that takes care of the energy needs of the community. Does anyone know of an energy supply that can do that?
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