Sure. And there are billions around the world that haven't been vaccinated. And even those who have can harbor the virus without being sick, breeding mutated strains.
Little in life is perfectly black and white. I choose to support freedom over tyranny in as much as possible. Even though freedom sometimes has a price.
But the judge for this girl in NH made very wrong decisions, and against the interests of the girl, and against the obviously caring perspective of the parents.
Yes. That said, if the parent has committed a crime, then that is a crime. There needs to be some reasonableness around things like spanking. That cannot be called an assault.
Who do you think has more of the best interest of the child in mind, the gov't or the parents? How about the incident of the girl in NH (I think, not sure I'm remembering it perfectly) where the gov't took her away from the parents when they had been doing the best thing for her, but some idiot doctor in Mass (where they took her because she had some other illness that needed immediate attention) determined that their care was not appropriate? Even though the doctors whom they were using in their home state were fully abreast of her condition and in agreement with the treatment?
You seem to want to give power to uninterested and uninvolved 3rd parties. Why?
Yes, I do agree. We need judges without political agendas, and without favors owed that overcome their ethical responsibilities. We need a return to fair treatment of honest imperfect parents. An end to financial rape of fathers by courts, lawyers, and looting mothers would be welcomed, too, albeit slightly off topic.
You don't have the right to beat your child to death in the privacy of your own home. Nor allow them to die to suit your worldview.
I don't defend what child protective services has become, but there was always a place for a cop to come to the defense of abused child.
Try to think back to the old west, when justice was more about justice. Would Randolf Scott have walked past - or would he scoop the child up with a vicious look at the dad.
This is what judges are truly for. Balancing these kinds of dilemmas.
Viruses are really good at changing themselves to keep alive. The unvaccinated kids get the measles and expose vaccinated people eventually gaining traction with immuno compromised individuals. The virus mutates and builds up its own immunities to the vaccine. Now we have to figure out how to vaccinate against the new strain. The point is we had all but eradicated measles from US populaion. That was a good thing. One less disease. And pampered 1st worlders don 't have to worry about pesky things like polio or Scarlet Fever. My aunt was deaf due to that. That said there 's a large list of things they want you vaccinating your kids for. Do your own research.
Who, if anyone, should judge such a case of a neglectful parent vs an overzealous busybody? Does it require power bestowed upon a bureaucrat to be resolved for the protection of the child?
If I'm talking about government interference in the family I'm talking about immoral activity.
Assaulting your child is a crime for good reason. The fact that some people consider spanking an assault doesn't mean you should have the right to beat your child.
Is it a crime when some sick #*$% won't take their boy to the ER after breaking his arm falling out of the tree he wasn't supposed to climb?
What if the child's shaking with fever?
Do you still claim the right of the parent is absolute?
What do you mean...." there are no scientific studies which confirm either the effectiveness or the safety of vaccines" Every one of then went through a double blind study before being approved by the FDA. If the FDA can be critisized for one thing it is not giving willy nilly approval for drugs. All the complaints are that they hold off too long approving things. Occasionally the vaccene does cause harm...but it is far less than the desese causes. Most of the vaccene injury stories are subject doubt as to weather the vaccene really caused the problem, but when someone dies from measels or smallpox etc, there is never any doubt. If you want further proof of the efficacy of vaccenes look at the mortality from polio before and after the polio vaccene came in....there is simply no arguement. The only reason we are having a resurgence of measles for instance is because of all the incontrolled illegal immigration.
The problem is that there are no scientific studies which confirm either the effectiveness or the safety of vaccines. There are only bare assertions of safety and effectiveness, and I require more than that to convince me.
Hell, yes on the Obama 'link.'... I'll offer the following sort-of-conspiracy-theory-connection which I happen to believe has some veracity...
With the "liberals' open border policies," terrorists will be very likely to take advantage of our border crossings to send their operatives in.
And there are SO many ways to Cloward-Piven an economy, pretending that Islamist Fundamentalist have NOT 'declared war on the US' many years ago is an extremely naïve policy that puts too many citizens in real danger.
... As France and several other countries have recently 'discovered.' It appears that even Jordanian citizens and leaders have finally 'had it up to here' with folks like ISIS/ISIL and are demanding "Real Change"... you can't "Hope" or pray this stuff to go away.
Ah...but tens of thousands died from a wide assortment of things back then. Since discovery of germs and indoor plumbing those numbers plummet. Way too apples to oranges to be valid.
Robbie53024 makes an excellent point, "responsible" parents have sole discretion over their child's welfare. Otherwise, where do you draw the line? As a good friend once debated with his lady friend..."What part of the Bible do you accept and what part do no not?". It's all or nothing in that case...you can't abide by 8 Commandments and simply let 2 of them slide. A is A.
Yes, to provide more data also. Here is a graph of mortality per 100,000 population showing the most of the missing years (1913-1975). Note that mortality dropped from about 10 to 0.2 (98% drop) in the years before a vaccine, and has continued to drop from 0.2 to 0.01 (95% drop) after vaccine. https://childhealthsafety.files.wordpres... Using today's population (317 mill) a drop from 10 to 0.2 would be a saving of 31,066 lives without vaccine. The vaccine would have saved an additional 602 lives. Note also that there is a significant decline in measles cases after the vaccine compared to the plateau of cases before the vaccine. So there is a benefit, but measles was not nearly the mortality risk in 1960 that it had been in the 19th century.
This is a perplexing issue. The example you cite actually is a weakness to the system, an overreacting immune response. This is clearly so since the individuals died (seems like a weakness to me).
Your question is an important one. By vaccinating, we are not removing the weak from the gene pool. Viruses like to mutate, eventually there will be a mutation that we cannot vaccinate against quickly enough and there will be another pandemic. If we had instead allowed those who were most susceptible to the infections die, the species as a whole would be stronger. That may seem cruel, but it is no more so than allowing weakness to propagate and eventually put the entire species at greater risk of total annihilation.
I keep hearing this argument by those who advocate required vaccination that those who do not vaccinate put others at risk. I cannot understand how. If they have chosen to be vaccinated, and have their loved ones vaccinated, then they should not become infected regardless of whether others were vaccinated or become infected. They just want to exert force on others to impose their values. What, if anything, am I missing here?
I don't have a dog in the fight, just trying to answer the request.
Please explain how that affects anything? Are you extrapolating that there were natural immunities that were occurring (or more likely, those individuals most susceptible were being eliminated from the gene pool) and thus the number of people prone to infection was reduced?
I think our medical advances are actually harming the species by not eliminating those permutations of gene mutations that are disadvantageous. Instead of culling out non-viable mutations, we propagate them.
This "evidence" ignores the 60 years of decline in measles prior to vaccines. Therefore this data is completely misleading. This is similar to the Global Warming alarmists omitting data to support the hockey stick temperature conclusions. Garbage in, garbage out.
Little in life is perfectly black and white. I choose to support freedom over tyranny in as much as possible. Even though freedom sometimes has a price.
Who do you think has more of the best interest of the child in mind, the gov't or the parents? How about the incident of the girl in NH (I think, not sure I'm remembering it perfectly) where the gov't took her away from the parents when they had been doing the best thing for her, but some idiot doctor in Mass (where they took her because she had some other illness that needed immediate attention) determined that their care was not appropriate? Even though the doctors whom they were using in their home state were fully abreast of her condition and in agreement with the treatment?
You seem to want to give power to uninterested and uninvolved 3rd parties. Why?
We need judges without political agendas, and without favors owed that overcome their ethical responsibilities.
We need a return to fair treatment of honest imperfect parents.
An end to financial rape of fathers by courts, lawyers, and looting mothers would be welcomed, too, albeit slightly off topic.
I don't defend what child protective services has become, but there was always a place for a cop to come to the defense of abused child.
Try to think back to the old west, when justice was more about justice. Would Randolf Scott have walked past - or would he scoop the child up with a vicious look at the dad.
This is what judges are truly for. Balancing these kinds of dilemmas.
At least that's my take - what's yours?
I say yes, a policeman. A parent does not have the right to allow a child to die from neglect. Do you disagree?
Assaulting your child is a crime for good reason. The fact that some people consider spanking an assault doesn't mean you should have the right to beat your child.
Is it a crime when some sick #*$% won't take their boy to the ER after breaking his arm falling out of the tree he wasn't supposed to climb?
What if the child's shaking with fever?
Do you still claim the right of the parent is absolute?
Prohibitions against Murder and stealing make Objective sense. Keeping the Sabbath and prohibiting other gods less so.
Even among Christians, The Bible is filled with admonitions universally ignored in the modern era.
I've known old-school Bible thumpers who lost no sleep marrying a divorcee.
And I've known Christians who made their peace with being gay.
Wisdom requires nuance.
With the "liberals' open border policies," terrorists will be very likely to take advantage of our border crossings to send their operatives in.
And there are SO many ways to Cloward-Piven an economy, pretending that Islamist Fundamentalist have NOT 'declared war on the US' many years ago is an extremely naïve policy that puts too many citizens in real danger.
... As France and several other countries have recently 'discovered.' It appears that even Jordanian citizens and leaders have finally 'had it up to here' with folks like ISIS/ISIL and are demanding "Real Change"... you can't "Hope" or pray this stuff to go away.
As a good friend once debated with his lady friend..."What part of the Bible do you accept and what part do no not?". It's all or nothing in that case...you can't abide by 8 Commandments and simply let 2 of them slide. A is A.
Here is a graph of mortality per 100,000 population showing the most of the missing years (1913-1975). Note that mortality dropped from about 10 to 0.2 (98% drop) in the years before a vaccine, and has continued to drop from 0.2 to 0.01 (95% drop) after vaccine.
https://childhealthsafety.files.wordpres...
Using today's population (317 mill) a drop from 10 to 0.2 would be a saving of 31,066 lives without vaccine. The vaccine would have saved an additional 602 lives.
Note also that there is a significant decline in measles cases after the vaccine compared to the plateau of cases before the vaccine.
So there is a benefit, but measles was not nearly the mortality risk in 1960 that it had been in the 19th century.
Your question is an important one. By vaccinating, we are not removing the weak from the gene pool. Viruses like to mutate, eventually there will be a mutation that we cannot vaccinate against quickly enough and there will be another pandemic. If we had instead allowed those who were most susceptible to the infections die, the species as a whole would be stronger. That may seem cruel, but it is no more so than allowing weakness to propagate and eventually put the entire species at greater risk of total annihilation.
Please explain how that affects anything? Are you extrapolating that there were natural immunities that were occurring (or more likely, those individuals most susceptible were being eliminated from the gene pool) and thus the number of people prone to infection was reduced?
I think our medical advances are actually harming the species by not eliminating those permutations of gene mutations that are disadvantageous. Instead of culling out non-viable mutations, we propagate them.
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