Medical slavery in Connecticut

Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 4 months ago to Government
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I'm against suicide, but I'm even more against statism. This is a direct affront to individuality. After this and the gun control they're pushing up there, I'd strongly advise anyone interested in freedom to move out of Connecticut.
SOURCE URL: http://freedomoutpost.com/2015/01/medical-tyranny-supreme-court-just-ruled-government-can-force-17-year-old-take-chemotherapy/


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  • Posted by Eudaimonia 9 years, 4 months ago
    Blarman, nothing, absolutely nothing about CT surprises me.
    I made up my mind to get out right after the SCOTUS Kelo vs New London decision.
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    • Posted by khalling 9 years, 4 months ago
      this is how we felt about Colorado. There was no one decision point, but it was striking how the two senators completely ignored half of the state (which is conservative). Here was the second largest city in the state, less than an hour from Denver, abandoned by the state government's decisions. But as Conservatives in CS focused on social issues, the city fell to politicians who said they were conservative but actually as RINO and crony as can be. sad, really
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  • Posted by $ Abaco 9 years, 4 months ago
    A few years ago, as an experiment, I asked on an Objectivist forum if people thought forced vaccination was a good idea. At least half said "yes". I still marvel at that. I understand the arguments. It's the premise that gets ya, isn't it?
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    • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 4 months ago
      Requiring vaccination as a condition of public school isn't really "forcing." (And the decision affects a lot of other people.) Besides, if you really believe the myth that it's unsafe, it's a good excuse to homeschool.
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      • Posted by Kittyhawk 9 years, 4 months ago
        "the myth that it's unsafe"? The reality is that the vaccine inserts have a long list of documented side effects. (Doctors and nurses won't provide them typically, but you can look them up online.) It's scientific truth that vaccines are highly unsafe for at least some percentage of people, who suffer side effects up to and including death. Here is an article with links to just a few of the medical studies which have concluded that vaccines can have serious side-effects, i.e., are "unsafe": http://www.regardingcaroline.com/pubmed

        There are also interesting questions about whether vaccines are even effective. Scroll down to the Mumps section in the following article, which discusses the outbreak in the NHL last month among fully vaccinated players: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articl... . One of the players who contracted mumps had even had a booster shot within the year. If they aren't very effective, then the risk of harm due to the vaccine becomes even more significant.

        I read an interesting point about this the other day: who exactly do you think makes up the "anti-vaccine movement"? Do you think it's a bunch of morons who will believe anything people tell them? (To the contrary, I've read that they're statistically more highly educated than those who are pro-vaccine.) Or do you think it's people who used to believe in the doctors' advice and the government pronouncements of "safety," who listened to that and vaccinated their children, and then saw them harmed? There are a lot of people in the latter category raising questions about vaccine safety, who the pharmaceutical companies have dubbed "anti-vaxxers" in an attempt to discredit them and avoid their valid questions as well as liability and lost profits.

        From what I've read, vaccine safety "science" is based on a lot of unproved assumptions, and supposedly there is not a single scientific study which proves either the efficacy or safety of the huge number of vaccines given to children today in combination. Can you point me to one?

        The supposed "safety" of vaccines sounds a lot more like a myth to me than the undeniable fact that they are unsafe to at least some of us.
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        • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 4 months ago
          The idea that vaccines cause autism began as a deliberate fraud by Dr. Andrew Wakefield, who rightly lost his license to practice medicine in Britain as a result. Here's an explanation by the reporter who dug it all up: http://cbriandeer.com/mmr/lancet-summary...

          Parents who won't vaccinate their kids cause outbreaks because no vaccine is 100% effective. Keeping their kids out is simply a necessity. They're idiots!

          A related story in Reason just now: http://reason.com/blog/2015/01/13/measle...
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          • Posted by Kittyhawk 9 years, 4 months ago
            Dr. Wakefield was unfairly railroaded for political and financial reasons. His partner in the studies was forced to spend a fortune challenging the revocation of his medical license, and won. Dozens of independent studies worldwide have since confirmed his findings, but the mainstream media won't tell you that. The following article reports that our country's national vaccine court has held in several cases that vaccines caused autism. I guess they're in on the "fraud," too? Scroll to the end of the article to read a list of 28 studies from around the world that confirm Dr. Wakefield’s research: http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/new-pub...

            You repeat the mainstream propaganda that "Parents who won't vaccinate their kids cause outbreaks." Proof? I've read of outbreaks of the vaccine strain of whooping cough, which could only be caused by vaccinated children -- but were still blamed on those who were unvaccinated, because that is more useful to those in control of the media and medical field. "Among live virus vaccines being used in the U.S. and other countries are measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox (varicella zoster), live virus (nasal spray) flu vaccine, shingles vaccine, and the rotavirus vaccine that’s given to infants for diarrhea. When you or your child gets a live virus attenuated vaccine, you can shed vaccine strain live virus in your body fluids, and the vaccine strain virus could potentially be transmitted to others, in whom it might cause serious complications. Unfortunately, many doctors are not even aware of this risk." from http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articl...

            You can call names all you want, but if you are able to keep an open mind and look at facts, there's plenty of evidence to prove that vaccines are both unsafe and ineffective You've challenged the link to autism unsuccessfully by repeating smears of Dr. Wakefield's integrity, but you've ignored all the other health issues medical professionals have said are caused by vaccination, in the list of studies I linked in my first comment.

            The rate of autism is now one in 88 children (or even more prevalent, according to some sources). What do those of you who are pro-vaccine believe is the cause of this dramatic increase in autism rates?
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  • Posted by wiggys 9 years, 4 months ago
    it is all about the money. no treatment no doctors or hospital bills. no taxes taken out of salaries from the workers. if she lives or dies is not the concern just the cash flow she generates at the moment. the costs are high i guess. you can kill someone and get 7 years in jail on average, but hurt cash flow to the government they will stop at nothing to stick it to you. when she is 18 can she just walk?
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 4 months ago
      "when she is 18 can she just walk?"

      Yes, because she will no longer be a minor and the doctors will have to get her consent for treatment. That's what this whole case is about: an arbitrary legal designation.
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  • Posted by Ben_C 9 years, 4 months ago
    Interesting discussion on vaccinations. I am in a related medical field (companion animal veterinary medicine) and rejoice that our durations of immunity are being challenged. Instead of annual vaccinations the expert committee recomends vaccinations every three years for companion animals. After ten years of the increased interval the committee wil likley recommend every five years. There are predictable side effects that occur in some breeds of dogs and cats that are vaccine related. But this doesn't mean that vaccines should be discontinued. I agree that modified live virus vaccines are scary and the trend in veterinary medicine is to the move to killed vaccine. Also, there are now a plethora of vaccines marketed for dogs and cats - most are not needed. BUT, the diseases do exist and the question becomes risk of exposure vs risk of side effects vs consequences of the disease. I remember as a kid childern in "iron lungs" and others with leg braces from polio. Clearly the vaccine reduced the incidence to nearly zero in the US. Rabies is not something you want to risk - you die. For those at risk of exposure get the vaccine. Life is a bell shaped curve - not many black and white issues. For my health I ask my health care provider "what is the background incidence of the disease for which you want to vaccinate me and what are the risks of the vaccine." I haven't had a flu shot in years - to hard to predict what strain will be around. I vaccinate my dogs and cats every three to five years with the core vaccine if I can remember to do it - and I have selective memory loss. Bottom line - its risk vs reward and deciding what risks you are willing to take is the question. This is an indivdual decision - not something that is government mandated.
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  • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 4 months ago
    no one should have the power to compel any innocent
    person to take poisonous chemicals into their body --
    or any other chemicals, for that matter. . the parents
    must lead on child care, and we DO hope that
    there are parents who care!!! -- j

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  • Posted by PeterAsher 9 years, 4 months ago
    Discussing suicide presumes that the chemotherapy will work and alternatives won’t.

    Chemo is considered in some circles of discussion to be only 3% effective. Destroys cancer cells for awhile, and then destroys the body.

    Unfortunately, most people who try alternatives have first been treated with “Slash, burn, poison” and have severely damaged their immune system before partaking in methods to enhance it.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 4 months ago
    This is such a clear-cut case that I wonder how the CT Supreme justifies their decision. Of course, I guess I really do know. As Michael Savage says, "Liberalism is a mental disorder."
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 4 months ago
      Because, they know better (or they believe that doctors know better). Of course, if the chemo caused the child to die, they would disavow any responsibility.
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  • Posted by AmericanGreatness 9 years, 4 months ago
    I'm reminded of the teenage girl held hostage by the hospital/state in Boston for over a year.

    In this case, though, the mom needs to smacked. What kind of parent let's their teenage child have the final decision about chemo to treat their cancer? Yes, it's awful while it's happening, but the alternative is death.

    Having been through this as a family, I can definitively say, it's worth it. State has no business in this issue, AND the mom needs to get her head screwed on straight.
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    • Posted by khalling 9 years, 4 months ago
      we have no idea what her chances are. what her doctors told her. The doctors on the other hand, now have to worry about liability so they become snitches in the healthcare slavery game. We have no idea what the girl's maturity level is-and I know the State has no idea. She faces an extremely risky treatment which gives her some percent boost at survival. You may disagree with their logic, but we don't have all of the facts in order to judge, I think.
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      • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 4 months ago
        And there have been documented cases of spontaneous remission. Either way, it's a gamble against the odds. But the choice should be the girls, and her families, not some uninterested/uninvolved third party.
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 4 months ago
      At what point do parents need to respect the decision-making capacities of their children - especially when it is over their own lives? No one is going to argue that a four-year-old is incapable of fending for himself/herself, but this is a seventeen-year-old. This is someone who will be on their own in the very near future and should be largely autonomous.

      It sounded to me like they had discussed the matter as a family and that the young lady had persuaded her parents on the matter. I think it's pretty presumptuous of us to armchair quarterback.
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      • Posted by AmericanGreatness 9 years, 4 months ago
        Certainly not at age seventeen. A parent has a duty to listen to their child, but the parent is the final arbiter.

        A seventeen year old simply does not have the wisdom/life experience to make a decision of this magnitude. A teenager's brain is not even fully formed (that doesn't finish until about 25), and one of the key components missing is the ability to recognize consequences of actions, "forecasting", etc.

        For decisions of life and death, parents must be benevolent dictators.
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        • Posted by $ 9 years, 4 months ago
          But in this case, the parents acceded to the desires of their daughter. They reasoned things out and all agreed on the outcome. It wasn't as if the parents weren't involved in the decision - they were the ones who sued the State to allow their decision to stand!

          I would further posit this: how are we supposed to expect our teenagers to make good decisions when outside the home if we as parents make all their decisions for them prior to that time? If they have never been forced to exercise their judgement skills and reap the consequences until the moment they leave the home, I think it pretty unreasonable to expect them to magically (and I do mean magically) acquire such wisdom in the two steps they take leaving the house.

          (Personal aside - I knew of one such young man who lived next door to me whose mother was, shall we say, "over-protective". He was never allowed to make any decisions and his mother frequently overrode them anyway. It took this young man nearly a decade after leaving the house to finally take charge of his own life.)

          I would also point out several potential fallacies involved:
          1) That the parents actually know what is best for the daughter. I would contend that this is precisely the logic the government is using to say that it gets to override the parents. I think that this reasoning must be cut off at the source or one must concede a slippery slope argument.
          2) That ANYONE - doctors included - actually can predict with any degree of certainty the outcomes involved. Though there have been great medical advances, I can tell you from VERY personal experience in the life/death of a child that doctors often have their own agenda in such high-cost practices. Their objectivity can very easily be called into question here.
          3) Probably the most important - that somehow the parents' will SHOULD override the will of a daughter who in this case I would deem to be fully competent in making her own decisions. Most states allow 17-year-olds to make their own decisions to graduate early. Most allow driving at sixteen. Most set the age of consent at 16. And are not those similarly life-defining events?
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          • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 4 months ago
            I look at this mostly as a question: who has the ultimate authority? I give nobody a right to DECIDE what is good for me, advice aside. Next: who has the authority to DECIDE what is good for my family? Isn't the answer obvious?
            Only parents should be allowed to decide whether to accommodate the wishes of their children. The only excuse for intervention is deliberate and obvious abuse.
            In our times and in this country the respect for the institution of family has decayed generally beyond recognition. Hack, half the mothers think that their children do not need their fathers. Is this progress? I think of it as a symptom of the deadly collectivist (read STATIST) infection that has been spreading for about 50 years. For convenience, and imprecisely, I choose the JFK election as the point in time.
            In short, dear B, I agree with you completely.
            As a post script: one can greatly enhance and accelerate maturing of one's children by treating them with respect as if they were more mature than their age would suggest and NEVER EVER lying in answering their questions. In a healthy family, children develop a strong desire to meet their parents' expectations.
            Sorry for verbosity. These subjects touch deep nerves.
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          • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 4 months ago
            To your point #2 - the doctors in NH (I think) who examined the teenage girl who had a slight medical issue and concluded that the parents weren't caring for her properly were of this sort. Even when shown that they were mistaken, they would not back down from their diagnosis, I think so as not to lose face. Their arrogance was more important than the proper care for the girl - who under their care lost tens of pounds and nearly died.

            No, doctors themselves should not have the final say. They can contribute to the evaluation, but the individual or their parents if minor child, must be allowed the final say. Not even a judge should have that power, unless it can be proven that the custodians have intentionally been harming the child. Withholding care is not intentionally causing harm.
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          • Posted by AmericanGreatness 9 years, 4 months ago
            So, if I'm understanding this correctly, the final decision should be left to the teenager, after a critical family discussion takes place. And, this is because teenagers historically make the best life decisions, particularly in matters of life and death?

            To be clear, the state has NO business in this decision whatsoever. My point is, barring critical information (like the child was absolutely terminal no matter what treatment she received) the mom is an idiot for not taking charge and removing the decision from the child's hands.

            One need look no further that one's own experience. How many times have we all thought, I can't believe I did such a stupid thing when I was a teenager. Except, this girl wouldn't be able to look back because she'd be dead.

            NO state involvement, better parenting...
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            • Posted by $ 9 years, 4 months ago
              No one learns without the ability to make mistakes - that is my point.

              As a parent who has been in a very similar circumstance, I can tell you that if their decision-making process was anything like mine, it was nothing less than heart-wrenching. I wish nothing like it upon anyone else. At the same time, my wife and I were completely agreed on the course of action we needed to take in our situation and we were willing to accept the consequences - which included the very real possibility of loss.

              There are no guarantees in life other than death and taxes. There are no guarantees that any medical treatment will work for any given diagnosis - especially in treating cancer. It is the presumption of knowledge that is the single largest fallacy in this whole affair - the idea that any of us can predict outcomes with any degree of certainty. But there are the following certainties: The State won't feel the anguish of the loss of the child. The State won't have flashbacks of those moments. The State won't second-guess their decisions. The State won't exhibit one iota of guilt about any of their decisions regarding the matter. They don't have to take responsibility for it either. As such, I say let the decision fall upon those who must take responsibility for such, let come what may.
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        • Posted by $ winterwind 9 years, 4 months ago
          AG - a dictator is a dictator. He tells you what to od, or else. You have no choice or input. The idea that the dictator thinks he's doing something for a good reason does not sanitize the "dictator" label.
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 4 months ago
          You don't know that. You don't have any idea of the maturity level of this girl. To make such outlandish statements without that knowledge just makes you another tyrant, imposing your will over others.
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          • -2
            Posted by AmericanGreatness 9 years, 4 months ago
            Not sure that questioning the judgement of a teenager qualifies as outlandish. The simple fact of the matter is a teenager's brain (any teenager) is not even fully developed. I would be equally critical of a parent who left if it their child to decide if it was ok to smoke pot or drive drunk.

            Parents are supposed to provide the guardrails, because teenager's don't have the necessary consequential or experiential knowledge necessary.

            The state shouldn't be involved in this, but the mom should be chastised. Also, did you vote for Obama, because throwing around words like tyrant, racist, etc. to silence debated is typically a tool of the left. If you're not an Obama-ite, you may want to refrain from that tactic to avoid the association. Better to remain silent and be presumed a fool, than express oneself and prove it.
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            • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 4 months ago
              Did you ever notice that some brains never fully develop? I can assure you that in my middle age I have met more than one (then) teenager who was brighter and overall better thinker than I ever became. It is each individual, dear AG. Grouping is almost always counterproductive or even damaging. Just my opinion.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 4 months ago
    I knew a young girl in Connecticut a few years ago who went through chemo, and we all thought she had beat cancer. A year or so later, it came back, when she was 14. Chemo was so bad and her chances so slim, she elected to skip it knowing full well she would die. She died 6 months later. I guess the government is intervening more now.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 4 months ago
    This ranks pretty small on my list of grievances against government. Indeed, if the teen wanted treatment and it was the parents that wouldn't allow it, I'd be for the intervention.
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    • Posted by $ 9 years, 4 months ago
      If so, I would invite you to think of all the ways that this ruling being upheld invites the government to impinge upon your ability to make decisions for yourself. This is the same logic NYC is using to ban soft drinks, trans-fats, salt, and all kinds of things - because they pretend to know better than you do what is good for you. It's the same rationale that lies behind all of the social safety net programs, not to mention the entire education establishment.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 4 months ago
      That would be a different case. And even if the girl didn't want it and the parents did, that would be a case where another party would be useful to evaluate the maturity of the girl to make such a decision for herself. But if the girl and the parents are in agreement on a course of action, then it's none of the state's business to interfere.
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