That has been answered several times and you continue to evade it.

Rationality does not start with arbitrary selection of premises.

It's probably worth mentioning that the term "overboard" has a rather specific meaning while traveling on a ship, versus (or maybe also) on an airplane. Since we are talking about words now.... It's probably a good thing that they threw him "overboard" before the plane took off, instead of after.

And still, speaking of words you can or can't say in relation to air travel, I wonder if you use a term which indicates you are a fanatical religious observer, causes grounds for taking you off a plane. This speech would include "I have a bomb in my underwear", "I'm flying this bad boy to the WTC", or "Merry Christmas". The interpretation of each of these is left to the hearer.

mohammed used a religion to bind a migratory people LIKE the Christians did and the Jews. Before his epiphany he was a murderer and thief. He used and constructed his "religion" with the notion of validating his past conduct. Oddly enough, islam was initially against polytheistic religions and believed itself to be the next phase to follow Christianity. I have no idea how that could be considering the massive differences in basic philosophy.

For the record, I'm familiar with faith and religious. I was raised going to church three times a week. I bought it well into adulthood, but stopped going to church when I was a teenager. So don't pretend I have no concept of faith and that you're on some higher plane of existence because you're a believer.
Also, I think you just made a remark about living a good life not being a waste regardless of after life stuff. I am good for the sake of being good, my rational self interest demands it. How is that wrong either? Do you think a person can only be good if they believe as you do?

I DO believe they aren't. Lol

Well said, LS.

It's what happens when one equates Existence and a God, or reason and faith.

Gasp! WHAT??? Why am I talking to you?

I don't refuse to see that you don't. YOU refuse to see that you don't. (Lol you set that up so beautifully..don't you dare edit it either.)

its okay, thanks. I prefer to keep my childhood memories in their proper place - the past. I had at least one over the years, I'm sure.

Good points. As to Muslims, I discount their existence except how they are ordered to convert me, enslave me, or murder me. Again, to belief: not fact, not truth, simply a belief. I will never understand (because I don't give a shit) why one wold CHOOSE to be a Muslim unless, of course I was male, liked to fuck little girls, murder my own family for a sick sense of honor, or found goats sexually attractive.

If one "feels" the need to have a God, why not choose one that improves everyone's quality of life at the expense of no one. The Muslim god (small "g") improves no one's quality of life except the pedophiles, brutes, non-thinkers and sexually sick sons of bitches.... Were I to choose a God, I would be polytheistic. More options.... and excuses.......

Nice, if thats how you look at God and why. I do not. I believe quite a bit of what happens on this planet is placed in our hands with only the Word to help guide us. Does God intercede? I lean yes, but only when it suit Him or some larger purpose for the whole of humanity (which I cannot see).

I loathe muslims, but I give them credit for one thing: the notion that god is neither good or bad and cannot be defined accordingly. To make that explains away quite a bit about 'why.'

As Joseph Campbell said, God is a metaphor to answer the unanswerable questions.

Again, from the same character in my world famous novel, Paris, Wyoming:

“One of the many burdens of age, my friend, is to make sense of the happenings that make our lives interesting.”
Jack smiled. “Which you’ve told me six or seven hundred times.”
“Oui. I’ve found that I can’t answer many of those questions so I ask them. It’s my contribution to epistemology."

As to the reference to "hope," hope is another necessary fiction. Hope can be inspiring, no doubt, but it still has not gotten me to win a lotto.

As a main character in my world famous novel (800 copies sold on Amazon), Paris, Wyoming by Jim James:

“The problem with believing in an afterlife is that it contains the seeds of a belief in a--- what shall I say? A pre-life? Something before life? Something to exist, a creator of something greater than what can be shown or demonstrated... maybe the metaphor called God.”
“You don't believe in God?”
“The wonderful characteristic about a belief, about belief as a concept, is that if one believes, one is relieved of the burdens of relevance and rationale. Beliefs are not truth. Beliefs are not fact, but they are powerful. Beliefs are the glue that attaches us to something bigger, whether it is fact or not. And I believe in my God.”
“Your God? You have a different God than everyone else?”
“I accept that my God is not all powerful or even all good. This way, I don't have to excuse why innocent men and women and little babies die at the hands of evil people, why some debts are created and go unpaid forever. I choose my necessary fictions with some intelligence.”
“What do you mean?”
“When a man or woman says, ‘I’m a good human being, I am beautiful, my county or my child or my God is the best,’ all those beliefs are necessary fictions, all designed to make us feel good when, if we faced the facts, we would feel stupid or lost or worthless or insignificant.
“Why did your God allow the holocaust or slavery in America or the tens of thousands of human sacrifices throughout history? Those people were not just unwashed, faceless hoards. They were individuals—individual, little baby human beings who suffered beyond your ability to conceive of pain.” Marcel’s eyes filled again and he sat silent, breathing deeply.

“Well, I guess—”
“Don't bother, Jack,” he said, emotional exhaustion slowing his words. He picked up the cotton napkin, dabbed his eyes, then placed the napkin on the table. “Let me finish by saying that a wise man chooses his necessary fictions carefully because, if he is honorable, he will be held to live by them.”

The man should get over himself. He deserved to be tossed off the airplane. Good grief. What harm is there in wishing one a Merry Christmas? It is not as if the crew was demanding a belief in the supernatural... only wishing the man a joyful holiday. When one says, "Happy Halloween" do they demand you believe in witches, ghosts and goblins? People need to lighten up. Believe what you will, live with the repercussions and tolerate the rights of others to do likewise. You can attract more bees with honey...

Thanks, I forgot the name of the wager. I wouldn't really call it apologetic (but I can see how some may) as much as a rational safeguard to preserve one's self in the event that an afterlife is true.

Pascal's Wager is an argument in apologetic philosophy[citation needed] devised by the seventeenth-century French philosopher, mathematician and physicist Blaise Pascal (1623–62). It posits that humans all bet with their lives either that God exists or not. Given the possibility that God actually does exist and assuming an infinite gain or loss associated with belief or unbelief in said God (as represented by an eternity in heaven or hell), a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.).

My bet is, whether God exists or not, is that He is a kind-hearted being ( Christian believers tell me that He is) that will forgive me for using the rational thought He gave me.

lol Good point.

So by your measure "hope" and a spectrum of other anticipatory words has no definition either?

Faith and belief, regardless of what some who believe choose to believe, is very selfish. In fact, it could even be extremely rational and atheism irrational if you look at it in a certain way.

[I'm not proselytizing, just talking..I'm the last person to speak authoritatively about God]

Consider (key word) living as Christ instructed (or trying to) hurts no one and helps others (though not everyone). Further, having faith is insurance against the void IF God exists.

To deny something simply because you can't prove it because of your current perceptions is irrational IF the phase/perspective of your existence changes once you die. To discount something simply because you can perceive it can be considered closed minded when science is talking string theory, multiple dimensions, and god particles.

Again, I'm just putting out food for thought. I personally think God wants us to scrutinize and figure out as much as we can. Why else do we each have these exceptional minds.

Well put. I call myself an atheist to simplify matters. If I said agnostic (which would be more accurate), it would open a conversation I'm not interested in having..... again and again and......

Me too :)