Yep, Kenyo... two sort of relevant thoughts... as I've told the story here before, I once called Nixon "a crook." My mom called me on that, saying, "How can you call him a crook? He's the President!"
I replied... "yes, and this particular President IS a crook!" Future events bore out my conclusion.

The other point is the reminder of how the Prez on West Wing reacted to criticism... 'you can criticize ME, but don't disrespect The Office Of The President!' I agree with that differentiation.

Police have tough jobs; jobs that nobody else is willing to do (if you think about it!) and there are nice folks and rotten folks in pretty much any and every group one can think of.

So, I respect the Authority and Power granted to the folks who've earned the Badge, and I try to not do anything to piss off or piss on the dude with the badge, but if an Individual Wearing A Badge does something I think is stupid, I believe that the First Amendment should protect my right to say so! In Public. To Anyone...

But trying to shove that opinion up the nose of the Guy or Gal With The Badge who is Standing In Front Of Me at the time is.... well... kind of counterproductive, don'tchathink? If not flat-out stupid?
:)

... and imnsho, the right word for people who elect Rubio, deBlasio and Bloomberg.... but hey, maybe that mental deficiency is locally viral? Or 'in the water'? Hey, maybe That's The Reason?!
:)

Walt Williams is also a favorite, and I agree with you on Sowell's politics. The man supported Newt Gingrich for President for heaven's sake!

I completely agree that staying within the bounds of that contract is law enforcement's responsibility. And they absolutely need to be careful about fulfilling that responsibility.

I've given up trying to figure out New Yorkers. Insanity is the right word for the tax and friskers.

you make an excellent point. But we have social contracts that also specify not to abuse the power they 're given. No one is sugges
ting going out of their way to be rude. Simply saying that if you are going to accuse me of something I did not do or something ridiculous like selling an individual cigarette I have a right to sound off. I can 't even imagine why NYorkers put up with the insanity of their law makers and stop and friskers

Then there's this reality check on the subject and wisdom of dissing a cop...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR465HoC...

I'm on Chris' side...

I don't see where that recommendation has any meaning.

And I bet he'd never accept their invites!!

Now what? We adjust our attitudes and become better citizens one at a time.

Maybe we are arguing semantics.

My point is that we have a social contract with the police that they will do what we don't want to do--take the bad guys off the street. We have this contract because if no one did this we would not be free to disrespect anyone, we'd be in survival mode constantly which is not conducive to pursuing happiness.

This is a good article. When Dr. Sowell talks economics, I Iove the guy. His book "Basic Economics" I have in both Spanish and English. Unfortunately, he strays from time to time and spouts the typical party line of the GOP faction of the Big Government Party. What I regret is he is not consistent as is, for example, Dr. Walter Williams.

Good discussion, interesting point of view. I'm sure you don't need a governing body -- neither do I. But, I can't say the same about the rest of mankind. As to seeking goals, it depends entirely as to what those goals are. If your goals were to need to use coercion then you'd need to have a governing body of some sort to stop you.
You claim that the logical conclusion to my proposal is slavery. That's true, eventually if it gets that far. But in today's world, what is your eventual conclusion? Each man a law unto himself. That's fine if there were no such thing as evil men. It could boil down to -- "I judge you to be evil because you use force to achieve your goals, so, I'll use self defense in order to eliminate your threat." Multiply this situation by several billion. This is a discussion that could grow into a book about how to set up the laws of a governing body that allows for the greatest freedom in the current state of civilization.

I don't endorse an us vs. them mentality. I endorse an "individual has absolute rights" mentality and believe that anyone who would deny those rights is, lacking a better word right now, the enemy.

There are many ways to fight the enemy, peaceful and otherwise. Let's say it is our job to get rid of them and we all agree to do it through channels - administrative, legal, ballot box, whatever is appropriate for the situation. Now let's examine how well that has worked in practice. Bad cops, bad elected officials, blatantly flawed judicial decisions. Ineffective "channels" because they've been corrupted in thousands of different ways. Now what?

I don't claim to have an answer.

I wasn't replying as me in particular, I was affirming everyone's right to disrespect cops if they so chose. In doing so I gave an example of why I feel that cops, as a group, don't automatically deserve respect.

You're right, I made a giant-sized generalization but I stand behind it. Whenever I get into this kind of discussion with people I usually make the claim that ALL cops are corrupt. People immediately attack my seemingly absurd claim, which is exactly the trap that I laid for them because now they are forced to listen to my justification.

I base my charge of corruption on the fact that every cop enforces laws on others that they themselves break. That is enjoying a special privilege outside the law and that is corrupt. I then say that any person who knowingly breaks the law loses the moral authority to impose the law on others. Raise your hand if you've ever seen a cop speeding when he wasn't responding to a call. How about driving through a stop sign or a red light? Two nights ago a town cop made a left-on-red after barely tapping his brakes, and it was NOT a deserted intersection; there was traffic.

As you are well aware, the police are mainly historians when it comes to real crimes, those with victims. They show up afterward and try to figure out what happened. Government legitimately provides for defense, protects our rights and enforces contracts. Most everything else is inappropriate.

I won't make any claims on the maturity of humanity. Objectivism describes man, his mind and how he must live if he is to remain man. The behavior of some individuals contrary to the nature and needs of man does not change the equation.

I deny that I need a "governing body." On the contrary, the attempts of one group to GOVERN another are destructive and in direct opposition to man's nature and his absolute right to govern himself. It actually says a lot about your disdain for humanity that you believe the collective must control the life of the individual.

I hope you don't feel that I'm attacking you. It's critical to trace a philosophical position to its logical conclusion. The logical conclusion of your position is slavery and a society in which people have no rights but must beg for alms from their betters.

(P.S. You mentioned Ideal Libertarian Ideas. The seeking of ideals should be an important goal of mankind followed by implementation of those ideals to the best of his ability. Libertarianism recognizes that there is no such thing as utopia. There is only that government that doesn't interfere with anyone's right to seek his own goals as long as he affords everyone else that same right.)

Many people I meet do not earn my respect. I am (typically, albeit not invariably) polite to them, because 'politeness' is an attribute of _my_ personality, not of the other person's worthiness - or lack thereof. Courtesy is a notch higher, in my estimation (so - are we arguing semantics?) and does reflect on the worth of the individual with whom I am interacting. But you asked, "...why do you want the right to disrespect an officer?" The right to disrespect an officer is a precious commodity - if I can do that, it means that my relationship with that person is not based on fear, in spite of the disparity of our positions in the power structure. It means that I can speak my mind to him without being concerned that he will arrest me for my words.

There have been LE individuals whom I genuinely respected. While my informal interactions with them were often ribald and involved smack-talking, I was also genuinely courteous to them, and treated them with a sense of deference - because they had earned it.

I default to being polite to people, police included. But I treasure the right to disrespect the police, because if I can do that...there is a chance that we are on the same side.

Jan

Agreed! He is a pleasure to read, almost universally logical and fact based, exposing what should be obvious false arguments from MSM/liberal sources.. I have shared many of his articles enthusiastically with the next generation

Sorry you had a bad experience. I personally haven't received a ticket I haven't deserved.

Bad cops exist. Of course they do. It's our job to be part of getting rid of them not giving them more reason to close ranks. The "us against them" mentality is wrong. I can see the reasons it exists, though, on both sides.

Uh. Can't agree. You have a problem with the cop then you have other processes to address that issue. That's what Chiefs of Police are for and that's what the courts are for. With freedom comes responsibility. If there are bad cops it is our responsibility to help get rid of them. We don't contribute to the problem by engaging in a heated argument on the street when emotion has the best of us. This is not about fear, it's about being a responsible citizen.

What I meant was not you in particular, but the anti-cop thing in general. However, "Most cops are petty tyrants" is a pretty broad statement." Unless you have some data to back that up, you certainly don't know "most cops." You are making some broadly encompassing statements implying that the institution of police officers is a bad thing, but offer no alternatives. Ideally, the libertarian idea of a
government-less society in which cops are not needed is, as old Willie Shakespeare put it, "A consummation devoutly to be wished," but unfortunately, we are a very long way from that. Humanity isn't nearly mature enough to do without a governing body, and yes, a police force.

Warning : disturbing. He insists he wasn't selling. He broke up a fight. A citation would have been adequate. Look how many officers are involved. Sickening http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video...