Should Rand Have Given More Credit to Locke?

Posted by khalling 13 years, 2 months ago to Philosophy
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Looking for some feedback on the premise that Rand expanded on natural rights to more clearly define property rights. Any comments gratefully appreciated
SOURCE URL: http://hallingblog.com/john-locke-vs-ayn-rand/


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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 13 years, 2 months ago
    khalling,

    It has been some time since I dusted off my Locke. I pulled him from my library and went through my bookmarks and offer the following remarks for the benefit of those not versed and the discussion.

    “An argument from what has been, to what should of right be, has no great force.” Locke eliminated scripture and custom as justification, leaving only natural rights as legitimate basis for governance. This is the primary thrust of his work.
    There is no natural political power, only that which has consent of the governed is legitimate. The natural condition of men is that of perfect freedom to order their actions, and dispose of their possessions and persons as they see fit, within the bounds of the law of nature; without asking leave, or depending upon the will of any other man. {You do not lose those natural property rights, the right to dispose of said property just because you enter society.}
    A state also of equality, wherein all the power and jurisdiction is reciprocal, no one having more than another; there being nothing more evident than that creatures of the same species…should also be equal one amongst another without subordination or subjection. This is the basis for all of our rights and the only legitimate reduction or accommodation to civil society or the social contract are those to which we give tacit approval by our tolerance and our presence, since we are free to leave. This was his argument for the social contract, but he believed that the people have the right to establish and set the limits of the power of government and thus the rights the people saw proper to relinquish to the government for the sake of civil society. He stated however that when the government violated the peoples trust and exceeded the legitimate authority they granted, the state was at war with the people. Therefore the people have the right to throw off the government and regain all of their natural rights and if desirous rebuild a society from that basis. The only means he could find for the method of determination of what constituted the point at which a people should throw off tyrannical government was a democratic one (majority rule).

    Locke’s arguments are interesting in that he was religious and he used scripture to counter erroneous religious arguments, but he saw religious freedom stemmed from natural rights; rights or, natural rights do not come from religion, or government. The foundation of his philosophy, the primary is therefore natural law. Mill’s On Liberty made many of the same arguments on the basis of natural rights without resorting to any religious arguments because he was clearly antagonistic towards any religious arguments and religion in general. Freedom of conscience was vital to both. For Mill it was for its own sake. For Locke it was for spiritual salvation.

    So Objectivism is very much a modern atheistic cousin to Lockean philosophy with more definition and specificity. It is not at odds generally, and digs deeper for more solid foundation in areas Locke did not. Particularly in the area of ethics as the article makes note and more focus on minority rights, the ultimate minority being the individual. They still share much. I agree with the articles thesis. She expanded on the basis of the right to property and its definition, but the basics, the general premise was shared by Locke.

    I find only one minor thing in the essay which I do not fully agree with or perhaps understand regarding Locke’s status as an empiricist. Why the following narrow definition?
    “This is distinguished from empiricism which holds that man’s only source of knowledge is his sense without recourse to concepts.”
    It seems to me that concepts and abstractions are products of the mind which may occur to an empiricist before or after empirical testing. An empiricist may have to rely upon concepts he has no empirical proof of until he has evidence in contradiction. Does this make one less than an empiricist if in your hierarchy of reason you still place empirical evidence when ascertainable above concepts? A concept is an idea, a thought, a generalized idea about a class of objects, an abstract notion, it can be an extrapolation based upon knowledge derived from sensory experience. I think an empiricist can fall back on concepts provided he is without sensory evidence to the contrary. He just can’t claim it to have empirical evidence or grant it the same gravity. I believe everyone must in those circumstances.

    I have condensed and paraphrased Locke in some places above where possible without distorting meaning.

    Well that’s my twenty five cents worth… inflation you know…
    Respectfully,
    O.A.
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    • Posted by 13 years, 2 months ago
      Dale's reply (not mine):
      Empiricism I took Rand's definition.
      “[Philosophers came to be divided] into two camps: those who claimed that man obtains his knowledge of the world by deducing it exclusively from concepts, which come from inside his head and are not derived from the perception of physical facts (the Rationalists)—and those who claimed that man obtains his knowledge from experience, which was held to mean: by direct perception of immediate facts, with no recourse to concepts (the Empiricists). To put it more simply: those who joined the [mystics] by abandoning reality—and those who clung to reality, by abandoning their mind.” “For the New Intellectual,” 30, Ayn Rand Lexicon.

      In my opinion, empiricism is one of those terms that is thrown around loosely, like "pragmatic." Ayn Rand was using it in a strict philosophical sense. I found this quote below while looking up the philosophical definition of empiricism.

      "To develop an empiricist account of science is to depict it as involving a search for truth only about the empirical world, about what is actual and observable.... It must involve throughout a resolute rejection of the demand for an explanation of the regularities in the observable course of nature, by means of truths concerning a reality beyond what is actual and observable, as a demand which plays no role in the scientific enterprise." (Emphasis Added)
      -Bas Van Fraassen

      This quote seems to be what Rand was driving at. The way I read it, science must reject broad explanations and only concern itself with stating what is. If taken literal, which Rand would do, this would means science should reject Newton and Einstein’s theory of gravity and just catalog what is observable.
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      • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 13 years, 2 months ago
        Interesting. The differing definitions represent lack of consensus. The term will then be "thrown around loosely." I have read many scholarly accounts attributing empiricism. If we are to accept Rand's definition and your appraisal then we must accept that Locke abandoned reality as opposed to his mind. He was not atheist so he was a mystic, but he probably practiced more empiricism than anyone else at the time. Perhaps this why he has been labeled as such. There is another way to look at it. We could consider it a matter of degrees and integrate the two. I find section 1.2 of the following link/page of interest.

        http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ration...
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        • Posted by 13 years, 2 months ago
          My understanding of Rand is that she rejected both and saw them as polar opposites. I see Locke as a deist, so I do not believe he abandoned reason or abandoned that we must observe the world to understand it. I think that Rand may have ignored Locke, because he was not consistent in his epistemology and because some people tried to force his ideas into a “pure” empiricist point of view. I think Rand could have been more clear on this point also. It is clear that reason and logic are the tools for non contradictory thinking (Rand’s point) and these are important in understanding how the mind works. However, every logical system must start either with a premise (assumption) or an observation. Mathematics is the study of logical systems divorced from reality. However, it is amazing how often it is useful in analyzing the real world. Even obscure areas of mathematics, such as number theory interest in prime numbers often turns out to be useful in understanding reality or designing real world systems. For instance, the study of prime numbers has been important in designing encryption systems. Physics is the study of the physical world but uses math and logic to extend our knowledge. It is amazing how often the study of the world leads to insight into mathematics. For instance, see Fourier transforms.
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          • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 13 years, 2 months ago
            khalling,

            Inspired to do some review and new research I came up with the following things to add to the discussion.
            I hope some will find them of value.

            John Locke held, since "God gave it to the use of the industrious and the rational (and labour was to be his title to it)" and the primary role of government is the protection of that property.

            It is probably because of statements like the preceding that left Rand less than adoring. The epistemology is wrong. She did not need Locke. She had Aristotle.

            I see no reason for Rand to abandon mathematics, deductive reasoning/ logic as evidence of Newton’s or Einstein’s theories. They are only more complicated extrapolations than simple trigonometry which could accurately, factually, determine the distance to the moon before we had laser instrumentality to corroborate the fact. Aristotle would have no such problem.

            John Locke in "Two Treatises Of Government" said "Every man has a property in his own person. This nobody has a right to, but himself.

            Here is something of note:

            Locke argued that each individual possesses the rights to life, liberty and property, that these rights exist in nature prior to the formation of government, and that the only legitimate government is one whose function is limited to protecting these rights. Rand argued that man's essential nature is to use his reason to produce the values on which his life depends, which in turn requires a government whose function is strictly limited to protecting him from the initiation of physical force by other men. Locke's ideas were the basis for The Declaration of Independence and the Constitutionthe United States. Rand's essential contribution was to give Locke's best theory of rights a consistent philosophic foundation that eliminates any possibility of misunderstanding or misapplication.
            Of course, these principles are highly abstract, and, for someone unfamiliar with the writings of Locke and Rand, probably raise as many questions and objections as they answer. Complicating matters immeasurably for most people is the prevalence in the culture of the antithetical moral, political, and economic ideas of Jean Jacques Rousseau, Immanuel Kant, G. W. F. Hegel, and Karl Marx. (Just as Locke's ideas provided the intellectual foundation for the relatively free governments of the 19th century, such as England and the United States, the ideas of Rousseau, Kant, Hegel and Marx provided the intellectual foundation for the totalitarian governments of the 20th century, such as Nazi Germany and Communist Russia.) Unfortunately, these antithetical ideas have come to completely dominate higher education during the last century, with the amazing result that most Americans are now, quite unwittingly, better versed in the political and economic premises of Vladimir Lenin and Adolph Hitler than in those of Thomas Jefferson and George Washington.
            Chuckbraman.com http://www.chuckbraman.com/Personal/Pers...

            I highly recommend the entire following essay if you care to follow the link.

            “Thus in the beginning all the world was America”
            by Edward Cline
            For the Colonial Williamsburg Journal, April/May 1999

            The two men most responsible for the founding of the United States never set foot in it, though their intellectual signatures are stamped on the Declaration of Independence as indelibly as any of the signers’ flourishes: Aristotle and John Locke. It was the Greek philosopher who bequeathed to the West – via Thomas Aquinas – the fundamental rules of reason and logic and the means for men to determine their purpose for living on earth. It was Locke who applied reason to politics more thoroughly and convincingly than had any political thinker before him. And it was to Locke that the Founders turned for their most trenchant arguments in the conflict with Britain. As Dr. Harry Binswanger, a lecturer on Locke’s importance in the history of ideas, has said, “As far as I can determine, Locke is the originator of individual rights.”

            http://drurytrantham.blogspot.com/

            Regards,
            O.A.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 13 years, 2 months ago
    Okay....I could understand it! (I think...if I didn't 100% it sure isn't the fault of your husband's writing skills...well done!) My dictionary came in handy though.
    I think it boils down to this Rand quote, "Man’s mind is his basic means of survival—and of self-protection. Reason is the most selfish human faculty: it has to be used in and by a man’s own mind, and its product—truth—makes him inflexible, intransigent, impervious to the power of any pack or any ruler. Deprived of the ability to reason, man becomes a docile, pliant, impotent chunk of clay, to be shaped into any subhuman form and used for any purpose by anyone who wants to bother."

    Somewhere in Atlas she mentions something like ... you either have a love of life or you don't. Those who do will pursuit their own happiness and use their mind to do it and those who don't will use guilt and force to benefit from those who do, making the ones who love life their slaves. Property rights are either being stolen or taxed out of existence (which is another form of theft)... I'm not sure where I'm going with this, just thinking on the keyboard. I'm heading out for the day but I will mull this over some more while I'm out and about. Very interesting article and I will add Locke to my million mile reading list. :)
    A Hank Rearden quote comes to mind, "It's MINE."
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    • Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 13 years, 2 months ago
      I say 'mine' a lot. I frequently get admonished for it, but I do it anyway. I've even broken up with boyfriends when coming home from a trip I found out they'd taken my car to get it washed or the oil changed etc. It's 'mine' and I did not give you permission to take it.

      I've also used the 'it's not yours so you have no rights to it without permission' on nieces and nephews. I've been called a 'b' because of it but my property rights are respected.
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    • Posted by 13 years, 2 months ago
      excellent Rearden quote. Every two year old uses that phrase as soon as they learn to string words together. Parents spend alot of time correcting their children to not use it. they're brainwashed by 2 years old to share. I didn't like saying no to my kids, so when they stuck their fingers into light sockets or opened a cabinet door, I moved them away and said a resounding "mine!"
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      • Posted by LetsShrug 13 years, 2 months ago
        If I had a dime for everytime I've caught a kid touching somebody elses stuff and said, "Excuse me...is that YOURS?" or "If it's not yours don't touch it!" It's my big fat rule. (I say that a lot too..."Okay..who can tell me what my big fat rule is??" lol It's a wonder I haven't been talked to.... but hey..saying big and fat together in one sentence...get's their attention every time..
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        • Posted by 13 years, 2 months ago
          our big fat rule with the kids is-"THINK!" we said to our kids, our nieces and nephews, any kid that came into our house-my husband was the go-to dad for explaining algebra and calc.
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          • Posted by LetsShrug 13 years, 2 months ago
            "use your brain and figure it out, you can do this." I say that to kinders all the time too... or if another kid blurts out an answer when it's not his/her turn... "Um...I want to know what her brain knows, not what your brain knows...it's HER turn and you just stole it, so now you get skipped when it comes around to you..." I'm a piece of work.
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  • Posted by 13 years, 2 months ago
    ok then, I'll just chat with myself.
    "It took centuries of intellectual, philosophical development to achieve political freedom. It was a long struggle, stretching from Aristotle to John Locke to the Founding Fathers. The system they established was not based on unlimited majority rule, but on its opposite: on individual rights, which were not to be alienated by majority vote or minority plotting. The individual was not left at the mercy of his neighbors or his leaders: the Constitutional system of checks and balances was scientifically devised to protect him from both. This was the great American achievement—and if concern for the actual welfare of other nations were our present leaders’ motive, this is what we should have been teaching the world."
    “Theory and Practice,”
    Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, 138, Ayn Rand Lexicon
    This is the only reference I can find where Rand wrote about Locke. Considering the blistering debate we have had this week on BORING patent rights, I find it essential to salt that discussion with this paper and Rand's analysis. (I am giving credit to LS for the use of the term "salt", which was an apt metaphor on another post)
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