Death of a Libertarian

Posted by Maphesdus 11 years, 5 months ago to Politics
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I thought this was a really good article, and it effectively sums up the biggest issue I have with Ayn Rand's philosophy.

READ ARTICLE: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tann...


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  • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The Hell it isn't. If someone walks in and thinks they're getting the evil eye, or followed around, or any other imaginary thing that could possibly hurt their feeeelings (oh whoa whoa whoa) then it's law suit time. So it's ALL about forcing another to pretend out of fear of legal interference. Which is WRONG. I for one would much rather have someone yell, "Hey you...outtta here." At me when I walked through a business's door than have them pretend to want to serve me... be honest and up front...then we don't have to tip toe around each other and PRETEND. Or have a financial interaction against my will. If you don't want to do business with me then I don't want to do business with you. It couldn't be more easy and there's no confusion.
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Haha, right. Like I said, I personally would prefer to take my business elsewhere, anyway. I wouldn't want to help line the pockets of a bigot.

    And punitive action is not the antithesis of capitalism, just of laissez faire capitalism.

    History has clearly shown us that communism and socialism don't work, and that capitalism is the only viable economic system. But that doesn't mean laissez faire capitalism is the only viable form of capitalism. Of all the different forms of capitalism which exist, why should we immediately jump to the conclusion that only laissez faire is viable, or even that laissez faire is viable at all, especially when a true laissez faire system has never existed anywhere? I can readily agree with any economist who promotes capitalism, though I have many suspicious and reservations about laissez faire. I believe regulations are necessary to ensure health and safety, and also to promote equality and fairness.

    (By the way, hiring a nanny isn't the same as running a business, so laws against discrimination don't apply there. Remember the distinction between the private and public spheres.)
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Ok. remedy. Maph I hate you. Smile. say cheese!
    your remedy is punitive. the antithesis of capitalism
    I do not want a member of al Qaeda as my nanny. If I am a bigot, you do not want my produce. get it?!
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Except that there is nothing wrong with filing a lawsuit against someone who violates your rights.

    People have a right to be idiots, sure, but they do not have the right to discriminate.

    Personally, I would have filed a lawsuit and then gone to a different photography company anyway, but I can understand if this couple wanted to set an example.
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Telling business owners that they cannot discriminate does not violate their freedom because there is no such thing as the right to discriminate. There is only the right to be free from discrimination.

    Whenever I hear someone say they have the right to discriminate, their arguments sound about as valid as that of a slave owner insisting that he has the right to own slaves.
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Why should LGBT people refrain from expressing their sexuality when straight people do not? Enforced silence is a form of oppression.
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  • Posted by vandermude 11 years, 5 months ago
    Oh, man - What a great article. I summarizes the main problem with Libertarianism. As the saying goes "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is." The Libertarian ideal would be wonderful, but reality requires more than a theoretical ideal. I want the best for everyone. And this requires that I look to every ideal and combine them together into an intellectual stew that feeds everyone. Ayn Rand may be a top ingredient in the stew, but I will add others to make the stew the most nutritious it can be.
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "Let's not forget that the opponents of the movement were Democrats."
    ---
    Let's also not forget that after the Civil Rights Movement of the 60s, huge swaths of racist Democrats left the party and became Republicans.
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    As long as your criteria doesn't exclude on the basis of one of the legally protected statuses above, you should be fine. For example, excluding someone because they lack the skills you need does not qualify as discrimination, since lack of skill is not a legally protected status.
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It's not a matter of making people feel welcome, it's a matter of protecting people's right to be free from discrimination.
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  • Posted by RonJ 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Why would I not serve a customer? I have every incentive to serve customers, and if I don't I can expect to lose customers to my competition. Either I change my attitude or I change careers, because I won't be long for the business world. The discrimination in the South was breaking down in the late 1800's until the racists used the force of government to pass and enforce Jim Crow laws. The streetcar companies fought against the 'back of the bus' rules for blacks because it was bad for business. Blacks eating in restaurants was curtailed by making it illegal. The Woolworth's lunch counter protest unfairly targeted Woolworths when it was really the state that required the separate accomodations.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    As it should be. Touchy feely be damned. (If someone is a force working against my freedoms...on any front...why the hell would I want to play nice for a possible buck? Get outta here.) :)
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  • Posted by dpesec 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Lets, you bet most people don't like to have force used against them. It's funny that some people use touchy feely to do business, others actually make money. Me, If I don't want to sell something or provide a service I don't. Plain pure and simple.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    My point was... Maph wants to force business owners to comply with recognizing certain statuses even at the detriment of the owner's business or personal freedom. He thinks business owners should not have a say in who they serve as customers. He likes force so long as it's not against himself. He also knows nothing about running a business. He's caught in a bubble of do-goodery and thinks we owe others something. One person's life choices do not trump another's belief system...but he thinks they should...out of "fairness". "Discriminate" is his favorite word.
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    and I don't want to fill out the legally mandated paperwork stating that I in fact was an equal opportunity employer. I am not. I want to be unequal. I have criteria that will exclude many. it's life. ever notice how most of the handicapped parking spaces are empty?
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  • Posted by dpesec 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Map, why not, all it takes is an executive order, regulation, court ruling or law and presto they now are. Remember a republic is designed to protect the rights of the minority from the majority. Unfortunately, The US has become a democracy, which means mob rule, the rights of the minority are no longer protected. Look at the property owners and business people being regulated to death.
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  • Posted by dpesec 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    ah the classic issue. Where does one person's right start and another's begin.
    I prefer to make a buck if possible. My feeling is that if I can look at myself in the morning when I shave. If I can say I've done good, I'm happy.
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  • Posted by dpesec 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    This is what a government does, it exerts force to get it way. Think about it, if you don't do something there's always the treat of force, direct or implied. You can lose your liberty, money or both.
    That's why I strongly support the 2nd amendment to the constitution.
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  • Posted by dpesec 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You know I've been thinking about this a while more. This can also be taken in another direction. Here in Ohio it's illegal for a person to smoke in their own business. I have a client for my management consulting business and she smokes. Everybody else in the company does too, except for me the lowly consultant. Yet each person is required by law to go outside 20 feet from the building to smoke. There is no entrance for the general public so it's only employees and me. This is just another move to toward Public Law 10-289.
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  • Posted by et85044 11 years, 5 months ago
    Ayn Rand is correct as quoted by LetsShrug
    Maphesdus is wrong. Modern society doesn't REQUIRE us to deal with irrational, but we inevitably do. One is FREE to avoid, not always capable of avoiding the irrational. The existence of this blog shows one can live in society that includes the irrational. If you run a store, why do you care if an irrational person buys your product or not? Irrational covers a lot of territory, from the practically irrelevant to the very serious. Of course you're not going to sign a contract with a known dishonest person and you can easily avoid such a person. Anf you can voluntarily cease watching "Elementary" because the main character says followers of Rand are "morally bankrupt." Most of our interactions are between people who don't know if the other is irrational or not.
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  • Posted by dpesec 11 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    wait as a business person I should have the right to decide who I serve. For example I do home defense and firearms training. What if I believe the person is a risk to him/herself or the class I still have to accept them in the class. I'm not sure I agree.
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