I will not become what I hate in others to help a collapse I don't want any part of. Galting, or shrugging, and leaving your own production behind so you can't be mooched and looted from any longer is one thing...becoming a moocher and a looter is not Galting....it's being a moocher and a looter. Don't confuse shrugging with mooching and looting. They are NOT the same thing.

Prof, so, are you saying that you're a drug dealer on foodstamps, welfare and disability ? and volunteer near the food kitchens to encourage more people to sign up for benefits? and you vote for all democrats in every election? OH! and you were the dude who brokered Solyndra's deal-
didn't your mom teach you two wrongs don't make a right? I say, it is more moral to be a Ragnar.

ok, take that cowardice part back.

wow. I hope you cut and paste these. I think the book is coming along nicely. :)

and dictated the Constitution and rule of law, cape

Here is the voice of a moocher (for the moment). There is a legal concept known as "Malicious Compliance". The basic idea is that it is possible to destroy a system by assiduously following all of its rules to the letter and beyond. Because the Liberal-Progressive movement is based on a false precept, that being that it is possible to get something for nothing, strict (and malicious) adherence to its rules can lead to its collapse. Hiding in an improvised "Galts Gulch" may not be possible in today's technological world but hiding in plain sight is. Seek ways to destroy the system from within. The collective can only survive until, as Margaret Thatcher observed, until it runs out of other peoples money. When that happens it will collapse of its own weight. Seek ways to put as much of a drain on the system as possible. Make demands that are impossible to satisfy and claim that "the public good is at stake". Our "rulers" have no concept of objective reality so take advantage of that as you find ways to subvert the system. Any idea that sound good but is in reality foolish will look good in their eyes, let the addict overdose on his selected narcotic and then pick up the pieces after the collapse. It can't be done all on one swoop but it is possible to destroy the enemy by the death of a thousand cuts. The secret is to destroy from within and pick up the pieces after the monster has finally died.

Thanks. There are two ways you can go: either to my post #32. (Click on my name, look for the number, click & go). Or to politicalislam.com.

Dr. Bill Warner examined the Koran from a scientific point of view. He divides the subject matter into percentages/numbers. And they will astound you. Here's a spoiler. How much of "Jihad" is truly about "inner struggle" to be a better muslim? 3%. How much deals with war on the kafir? (you & me) 97%. Also, for Sharia Law, THE definitive book, go to Amazon.com and type in Reliance of the Traveler. It will be a giant Green hardback book. Want to make a muslim uncomfortable? Ask them why do they still kill Christians today?

And you did it again, US.... Thanks !!

Wow.... What an answer....What books do you read/recommend? You say/wrote that you use the same resources that the muslims themselves use, What are they?

My thoughts exactly. Galts Gulch wasn't just in a remote location, it was shielded using superior technology. Also, while the Shruggers DID take option 1, it was only to continue to recruit and build option 2.

Greetings swmorgan77,
Do whatever you can. At least there are those who realize what they are doing, like you and many others here. The motor will stop regardless of our efforts, unless more wake up to this recognition. If enough people come to their senses collectivism will lose.
O.A.

I shrug the way Rand explained that many people do without even realizing it. In a society of irrational rules and success by "pull" many people respond at a deep psychological level by withholding their mind and abilities from the marketplace and working on some minimal, mindless way to survive.

The real shrugging wouldn't take place until a time in the future when all that fancy technology has broken down and the people who could repair it have withdrawn their services, resulting in a return of the US to near third world status. In that case, Colorado would work fine as a location for the gulch as described in the novel.

My response may take this posting down a rabbit hole, and should be for a different post, but I will try to answer this as brutally honest & as efficient as I can.

The U.S. Military failed in securing a better future for the Afghanis because our idiotic, foreign-bought, politically-correct politicians on crapitol hill (Starting under Bush in '01) refused to identify who exactly is our enemy. Is it Al-Qadea? No, not quite. The Taliban? Nope, but again, not quite. The Muslim Brotherhood? Same answer. What binds these 3 together? Muslims? Yes, but Muslims aren't our enemy either. (Wish I could use italics) What's the ideology that guides the muslims & thus the 3 organizations I mention? This is the 800 pound, 7th Century gorilla that no politician, nor anyone in the main stream media want to touch.

It's Islam. To understand Islam, you have to understand WHO IS THE PERFECT MUSLIM? Mohammed. If you understand who Mohammed is and what he did, and what he said, (this is the big clue for politicians, especially those who deal with National Policy) YOU WON'T NEED TO ASK AN IMMAM ON ISLAM. You'll already know what to expect from muslims regarding how they view anyone who is not a muslim and will not submit. There is a documented 1400 year history on what Islam has done to The West. They haven't changed. They know who their enemy is. They know what ideology we live by. (If you're a Liberal, it's the Marxist Manifiesto, if you're a Christian, it's the Bible, American, but not Christian, the Constitution) And they have a game plan on how to destroy us. The muslims know what they are doing. We don't.

If our politicians are too damn chickenshit to stand-up and declare what is the enemy of the U.S, we will never win any war against these people. We will lose not just Afghanistan, but our very culture and country HERE.

To briefly illustrate: how did we win WWII? Was it a War on the Blitzkreig? No. It was against Nazi Germany. But what was the ideology behind Hitler's Nazi regime? Socialism.

How did we win The Cold War? Was it a War against Soviet Tank Maneuvers? No. What was the ideology behind the Iron Curtain? Communism. (I know you already know this, but I'm pointing this out to those who may not know, I don't mean to insult your intelligence)

Same thing with Islam. To think we'll beat them using any other method of identifying what motivates them is fatal to our troops, and our credibility.

Sir, I ask you to look up my prior postings. You'll find all the material you'll need to get THE TRUTH regarding Islam. I use the same resources that the muslims themselves use.

Getting back to why we are smarter than the Afghanis:

Those of us here in the Gulch are smart enough to know we are being played by those in elected and unelected government offices. We will not 'submit', simply because some Executive Jacka$$ traitor to the Constitution and the traditional American values says so. Afghanis on the other hand, MUST OBEY. Or, it will mean death to them, or their family.

We can do something about it, Afghanis can't, and based on personal conversations with troops who were stationed there (Combat Patrols) the Afghanis don't want to change. For them to embrace and ideology (Western Democracy - based on Judeo-Christian values) is forbidden. Who's says? Mohammed says. If they embrace it, it means death to them, or expulsion from the village. Which ultimately means death anyway because they have no where to go and everyone would know why & thus are commanded by Mohammed's teachings to kill anyone who leaves Islam.

I hope this answers your question.

I was good until you said "smarter than the Afghanis". If we are so much smarter, why haven't we succeded? Alexander couldn't, we in our arrogance are les likely to either. As a retired naval officer, i recognized that the results were preordained. In order to change the culture you must go for the long term (like the totalitarians have done heard in the US, or settle for specific objectives...we did neither.

sheesh. Mike, if I would've known that, the conversation might have started in a different place. Do you mind sharing that country with us? I'd like to get your impressions on returning part time back to the states. For me, it gets more and more difficult to do. mentally speaking. also, when people visit me and ask over and over and over, "can we do this?" "this is legal" "why aren't they...." it becomes crystal clear our children have been and our grandchildren will be raised to believe the govt will protect them everything as long as they say "mother may I?" first.
Are you part of a particular community that is identified by its expat numbers? or have you blended in? what have been the most significant challenges you had to overcome making the transition? Do you see yourself moving out of the states for good? sorry to pummel you with questions, but this is an interesting topic to me. There are several producers in here who have lived abroad for long periods of time, as well as those who are from other countries. It is always difficult to explain to those of other nationalities exactly why we are so upset. of course, they're in the "Gulch" as well-so they get it. maybe they'll comment.
for me, it is the acute feeling of stolen. like any victim of a crime, I feel the overwhelming sense of violation, in the loss of my freedoms, and I'm not that old. well, old enough :) Overman is going to say something here if I don't clarify. I feel this, I am angry about it, but proactive for myself and my family. It's harder to "get" if you are just born into a society where these freedoms are already gone. However, throughout history, ambitious people have always moved where there was more economic opportunity and freedom.

Those are good questions Mike. Khalling covered it quite well. Here's my .02: If you're like the rest of us, who actually like doing something constructive, could you stand to pretend to be stupid and unmotivated (among the looters & moochers) for an extended time?

I've been in that situation before, long ago in the military and I know my answer: no. The very act of getting up and going about to do something with self-initiative would give you away in a heartbeat. Even something like cleaning up/making things more organized would be a 'red-flag' to the looters/moochers that you're a producer.

Sanctuary in another country is very tough. To go to any country with the idea that you'll have your guns is a pipe dream, unless you're looking at being among the criminal underground. Just like what Khalling mentions, our communist government will want their taxes as long as you remain a U.S. citizen. It implies if you leave to live overseas, you should renounce your citizenship if you don't want to pay them $$ they shouldn't receive anyway. I'm currently working on my bug-out plan, but I'm taking it with lots of salt, and it's only because the communists here are making it impossible for me and especially my kids to have a future to look forward to.

IMO, it really boils down to what you're willing to put up with, and without. It isn't a decision that's trivial. Looking at the big picture and seeing what lies ahead (10-20 years) for this country are the two factors in my planning.

Regarding your first sentence, I wouldn't waste time worrying about the technology being employed by DHS/FBI, etc. We have spent 12 years in Afghanistan, employing the best technology we have to futilely waste our resources going after a tactic. The tragedy is over 1,100 servicemen died in the process. And for what? Nothing. The ideology that rules the Islamists is still strong. The culture (VERY tribal) is still intact and they continue to briefly live to attack and kill our military. What's the point?

If the 7th century killers and their evil ideology can survive 12 years of being hunted down with the best technology & men coming after them, WE certainly can make it, because we are far smarter than the Afghanis.

Well put!

Not sure if secrecy is important. Do believe shrugging needs to be done as a fade away rather than poking Big Brother in the eye.

John Galt today would be in a Super Max cell in solitary confinement for bogus crimes as a lesson to deter others.

Thanks for response. I split time between the U.S. and another country where I have acquired residency. The extraterritorial/global application of U.S. law makes it easy to loot from expat producers.
Big Brother seems hell bent on turning capitalists into criminals as a means of control while turning a blind eye to the real financial crimes of the Geitners, Corzines, etc. who revolve between Wall Street and D.C. jobs.

Yes, a virtual Gulch is today's real one. Plus, secrecy isn't so important anyway. In the end all people who shrug need to understand is that they have all the power, because it is they who produce. The takers are always on the short end of the stick even though they think they are the ones with all the power. Until then, we have this.

If it all collapses, and the internet goes away, then I suspect we'd all find ourselves in the mountains somewhere doing much the same as what was done in Atlas Shrugged.

mike,
there are a few posts in here addressing that topic. but it's always good to dust it off and look at it fresh. I am outside the country. there is no perfect place. some people talk about Chile, Nic, costa rica- all the latin amer. countries have their own issues and if there was a large event, instability there is higher. there is a chart at heritage but also the frazier institute on economic freedom. check that out. Recently, the US govt got a treaty signed with many other countries for foreign banks to report US citizen's accounts. it is very onerous on those institutions and that cost in reporting will be passed on to US citizens as well as make it harder to get the bank acct in the first place. all of this is quietly done while we fight battles on other fronts and most are completely unaware of this. Germany and Switzerland are two countries protesting this. we shall see how this shakes out. btw-the US is the only country in the world that requires US citizens who are living abroad to report and pay income tax. most countries do not allow you to have firearms. however, there are tax advantages to living outside the country. there are also bureaucratic nightmares to go through for residencies depending. Overall, if you choose latin or south america, your cost of living is significantly reduced, if you're near the equator, you have a year round growing cycle. I assume you've checked out international living? finally, well my 2 cents anyway, beware real estate deals promising expat communities and amenities galore. it is always best to "try it out" before deciding on a permanent location. even if you're sold on an area, I'd bet you would choose different arrangements after a year somewhere than when you first arrived.
lots of people in the gulch hide in plain sight. they aren't going to talk with you much in here about how to do that. to be honest, I can't think of anyone who is a regular contributor in here that has renounced citizenship though.
practically speaking, the beauty of galting with today's tech, means virtual gulch. a physical location that like minded people go to, just doesn't seem as necessary. when you live outside the country, you will be surprised how many people you meet who basically decided to leave for the same reasons. disgust with where the nation is headed, tired of dealing with burdensome regulations, frustration that the rule of law is overlooked by those in power, hate that the cronies receive all the benefit and small business and individuals are used to suck the lifeblood from.