Historically it is clear that Islam had a period of time during which it was open to science, reason, and commerce. Islamic scholars are responsible for most of what we know about the ancient Greeks. The did this at a time in which Christianity was burning books and pushing an aggressive anti-intellectual agenda.

I read an interesting article about why this period of time ended and it was fundamentalist, literal interpretation of the Koran faction vs. the non-literal, open to inquiry and reason faction and the fundamentalists won. Christianity went through a similar issue around the 3rd or 4th century, then tried a repeat during the spanish inquisition in reaction to the Reinissance and is fighting hard for a repeat in the US today, where we are suppose to take the Bible literally, which means renouncing, reason science, logic and technology

If you read the book of Acts in the Bible, you'll see the Jewish religious leaders stoned Stephen and had issued warrants for Saul to arrest and kill Christians and he was going out to do just that when he had his "road to Damascus" experience. In apparently not-so-well governed areas, we also see city mobs stoning Christians, though this was not exclusively a Jewish thing. However, I've always gotten the impression these were oddball outlier events. The overwhelming massive persecution didn't even come down until Nero in 68AD and then pretty much continued in spurts all the way to Constantine.

How did Islam change over the years? By the tenents of Islam, it cannot change and any attempt at change is heresy that must be cut out, literaly. All authorities on Islam (mostly in Alexandria and Saudi Arabia, not George Bush, wht stated that "Islam is a religion of peace"!) agree on the one and only Islam and Koran, and these cannot be modified or watered down. Expecting Islam to go through a similar transformation as Christianity is really just ignorance of Islam.

I am curious as to any supporting data on your statement that original Christians were executed by the Jews?

LOL but we start by convincing people not to vote for him.

Maybe you can start with convincing the Muslim in the White House, then I will agree with you :-)

yes. 500 points gary

But they never say whether they are boys or girls. Did you notice that? Also, here's something that the Koran or Mohammed never can answer: what happens to those you've 'deflowered'? Do they somehow lose that experience & then become virgins again for the next time? Perpetual virginity?

You're welcome. Regarding Old Testament violence, that's why there's something called the New Testament. But that's for a different post, different campfire.

Regarding MSM control, I recco you check out who the top anchor's of all the network's belong to. Council on Foreign Relations ~ a policy arm of the Rockefellers that got it's start in 1919. If you haven't read any of Gary Allen's books, I strongly recommend you take the time and read them. It is an education that the Establishment does not want you or anyone else to know. If any of the information wasn't true, you can bet Mr. Allen would have been sued ~ he never was.

Politics and Religion... Oil and Water... Of course the POTUS has no authority to declare what is or is not...

I'm trying to give you unbiased links and you respond with a propaganda link?

Kathy, we have to win the war here first. If we don't even support Western Enlightenment in the US, then we are not going to convince the muslims around the world.

WWII can be traced on our failure to win the war of ideas in the US itself. If the US and the west had not gone through a depression there would have been much less impetuous for Japan and Germany to use war as a way to advance their goals. In addition, if the US and West had stayed stronger economically, they would have realized it was suicide.

In the present case, the war with Islam can only be won with ideas. We start by pointed out the absurdity and evilness of their ideas. But as long as we have a moral relativist as president this will not happen.

Oops... Thanks for that... Lol !!

Hi Db,

I have to say yes, but the ideology didn't make the changes in your examples, although I do think people should be exposed to the philosophy of Objectivism. We sat back, as you would like us to, with the Japanese, until they bombed Pearl Harbor..and the change took place when we retaliated with the force of protecting our citizens. They knew we would destroy them if they kept their stance. I don't think Hitler ever change his mind and it took another show of force by us and others to destroy his evil. Those Islamists that want natural rights are killed if they pronounce them. Yes, I personally know some from that part of the world that came here for Freedom...they agree with Rand, they lived with it, the escaped it, they know when they hear BO open his mouth that he is talking like they heard at home and recognize it.. America has laws that follow OUR Constitution...well, not any more with this POTUS..but our courts, as in New Jersey are putting Sharia law above ours, I see no good ending :-) We are at war right now and it is right in our back yard, so I will not be a willing victim. I will however, introduce ideas to those willing to listen....

What hate is on display here?

Your base assertion was that Islam is a peaceful religion. I produced a counter argument that not only the history, but the doctrine directly contradict your claim in refutation of your assertion. In support of your argument, you bring up individual editorials and articles which repeat your assertion. I applauded those individuals for their stances, but noted that the vast majority of action not only does not confirm your hypothesis, but directly contradicts it. It is not hate, but simple debate. It is test and observation.

And I would note that I haven't disagreed with you that the majority of Muslims are NOT extremists (the CIA estimates between 15% and 25% BTW). But when you are talking about 1.5 billion people (the more common figure is about 1.2 billion BTW), that is a LOT of nut-jobs - somewhere between 225 and 375 MILLION (according to your numbers)! That means that out of any group of Muslims, between 1 in seven and 1 in 4 is a radical! I don't know of any other philosophy or religion on earth with that kind of propensity for violence, do you? Well, I guess there's socialism...

http://muslim-responses.com/

funny that I am Christian ... people wonder why Non_radical Islamic people dont speak out? Look what has happened here when someone defends the peaceful part of the religion and condemns the radicals.... why would anyone go through this with such hatred focused at them?

Actually, its anywhere form 72 to 76 virgins, depending upon the interpretation.

thanks uncommon. I'm always a little scared when I finish your Islam lectures, because I will be FIRST.
#6, what conspiracies are you referring to? what's happening in Europe is fast happening in the US. Muslim communities where there are significantly higher violent crimes against women than in other communities. here is from the fbi's website:
http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/public...
about halfway into it, they quote a member of a muslim community in GB, who is frustrated with the questioning of anti-terrorist police. His response is to ask that they build a relationship before discussing sensitive issues like terrorism. which is very telling to me. If the FBI knocked on my door and said what do you know about terrorism in your community, I would say quickly, NOTHING. I don't need any relationship-building before revealing more-because I wouldn't know more. here's another one:
http://publicintelligence.net/ufouo-fbi-...
now, I'll admit, somewhat ridiculous because they stress several times there has been no credible evidence-but are they sending bulletins out like this about Catholic or Protestant groups if someone was to burn a few bibles? We do not live in Iraq after all, but the US. well, I don't live in the US, but this seems crazy to me that these extremists have such far reach and they are protected in their communities and mosques.

If you want to get defensive, it is your choice. I simply point to the facts in front of me. They happen to very blatantly contradict the story you are trying to tell. I'm very glad that you, for one, eschew violence. Please continue to do so. Maybe at some point you and others like you will be able to show that Islam is a religion of peace. When the beheadings, the suicide bombings, the mass killings, the rocket attacks, etc. stop then I will welcome such a positive change with open arms. I await that day.

any religion that does not give the same rights to women as they give to men is radical and immoral.

so this statement was incorrect ? "The FBI's current list of terrorist organizations is dominated by Islamic groups."

Ok, I'll just agree with you: Problems and violence of the world are because of Islam, Christianity is the answer and Jesus Christ is the savior and all your "facts" are from unbiased, factual, un-opinionated sources.

I never said all Muslims are radical. What I said is that the preponderance of their history is a consistent story of violence against others - one that I can not ignore any more than you can refute it.

As to the list of terrorist groups, here's the one I refer to (the official government one), and 18 of the top twenty are Islamic groups:

http://www.state.gov/j/ct/rls/other/des/...

For the last time, if you want to persuade me that Islam is a religion of peace, SHOW ME. The recent beheadings here in the US aren't helping your cause one bit.

Clearly you either missed this video or you missed its message. Either way, watch it in full and pay close attention. If you cannot learn something from it than there probably inst anyone here who can help you learn anything.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry3NzkAOo...

The HUGE fact you are ignoring is that islam will have no interest in "reform" until everyone is a muslim. Are you ready to convert to aid in the reformation? Im not. So the question then becomes what do we do about islam?