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I'm gettin' older, I guess

Posted by $ rainman0720 4 days, 16 hours ago to Technology
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I retired at the end of 2021 after a 45-year career as an application programmer. I only used two languages during those 45 years: PL/1, and COBOL. I don’t think anyone uses PL/1 anymore (which is a shame, as I understood it more than I understood instructions for making toast), but according to http://zdnet.com, there are still an estimated 800 billion lines of COBOL code being used every minute of every day.

So in reading an article about the SSA dashboard being less user-friendly than it used to be (due to some self-service things being removed), I saw this little gem:


“DOGE also has sought to upgrade and update SSA technology systems, including a coding regimen called "COBOL" that goes back to the 1950s.”


"Coding regimen"? They didn't even have the courtesy or respect to call it a programming language.

Makes me feel real old.


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  • Posted by diessos 3 days, 11 hours ago
    With COBOL, PL1, JCL and CICS for online stuff you could get a job anywhere. Now you HAVE to not only know some obscure language, but the exact version they have. Many years ago, I was turned down for an interview because I didn't have 5 years of .net experience..... .net was only released 2 years before. When I informed them of that they said.. "The job requires 5 years of experience"
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    • Posted by $ 3 days, 6 hours ago
      I was one of probably 10 or 15 people in the world who preferred Macro Level CICS instead of Command Level CICS. Loved seeing what went on behind the scenes. Speaking of JCL...how much fun was it to slip in the occasional DD DUMMY into a JCL stream?
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  • Posted by mccannon01 4 days, 5 hours ago
    Ha ha, I know how you feel, rainman0720. I'm an old FORTRAN coder myself. Just keep in mind without guys like us, they would never be.
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    • Posted by $ 4 days, 4 hours ago
      I'll go back even more...my first real program (to prove a mathematical theorem) as a junior in high school (spring '74, I think) was written in BASIC.

      And you're right; without us oldies, the newbies wouldn't exist. As exhibit A, I give you: Pong.
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      • Posted by mccannon01 4 days, 2 hours ago
        LOL, Pong was fun, but got old fast. I cut my coding teeth using FORTRAN in '72 on a CDC 1704 mini computer that used core memory (yeah, iron donuts with wires through them). When it was scrapped in the late '70s I rescued an 8k byte core module, which is a bit larger than a cubic foot and weighs about 10 pounds. It's in my "man cave" as a remembrance. The system employed 8 of these modules to give it a total memory capacity of 64k bytes. We did a LOT with that machine. Oh, the mass storage was a pair of multi-platter CDC drives with a total of 2.5 mega bytes each. One was online live and the other was the backup. Programs were entered on punched cards or paper tape - WTF are those?!!! LMAO.

        Edit add: Oh wait! I took a 3 month DP course in high school in '69 and was introduced to JPL and COBOL! Had to take a bus to a downtown location to time share on an IBM 360. (I think it was a 360) Forgot about that!
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        • Posted by freedomforall 3 days, 19 hours ago
          Paper tape for me in '74, until that was followed by cards on another site in '76.
          Like yours, that computer also had 64k of memory (and required a full floor of the building.)
          We had to re-code overlays (running out of memory) to add capabilities that the original
          designer hadn't considered when he designed it with an old college drinking buddy providing
          the design requirements. ;^)
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        • Posted by $ 4 days, 2 hours ago
          Paper tape for the high school programs, and IBM 028 card punches initially in college. The 028 didn't interpret; all it did was punch the square zone & digit holes. Had to interpret on another IBM machine. Then we went to the 128 card punch, and you entered your data, hit release, and the card slid through and punched & interpreted at the same time. Felt like we were living high on the hog!
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          • Posted by mccannon01 3 days, 4 hours ago
            To rainman and FFA: Don't know whether to sing "Thanks for the memories" or "Those were the days". Although I was always a side show of the big show, I can't help but think I contributed a little something to where the kids are now. I still do a little coding in my workshop fooling with Python on a Raspberry Pi I'm totally out of the industrial stream (though I still get contacted now and then). I'm more into growing strawberries and tomatoes, LOL!
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            • Posted by $ 3 days, 4 hours ago
              I never pushed him, but my son sort of followed my steps into IT. When I look at what he knows, what he can do, and at the tools he uses, I have to think that the time and efforts that you, FFA, I, and all the others put in was well worth it.
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          • Posted by CaptainKirk 18 hours, 19 minutes ago
            Okay, I am a few years behind you guys.
            I got to punch a punch card for fun! (Learned how to change our phone bill, tape over the other hole), and send the check for the proper amount, it marked your account fully paid if the check matched the card. LMAO. NOT that I did that. I learned about it.

            But I did grow up with CLOAD on the TRS-80. (Cassette Load, or read from cassette tape). Where you learn they stored your program as sounds. SO Cool.

            Later we realized we could connect a voice activated recorder to a phone line, and record the entire computer conversations (username, password, etc). And by building a bandpass filter, you could clip the audio to ONE side of the conversation and play a lot of it back into an Acuostic Modem and get a lot more information than you thought possible.

            Doing that kind of stuff as a teenager is what caused me to fall in love with software. I was almost published in the DEC Professional Magazine as a high school student. I rewrote the startup routines that used to take 5 minutes to initialize the system, and had them done in 26 seconds. This allowed us to reboot the computer between classes, and during lunch, to try out crazy ideas on scratch systems. (I crashed a LOT of systems back in the day, learning).

            Last Great Memory. We had ONE guy who always booted the wrong disk. I changed the message from "Non-System Disk Error" To "Good Going Valade, you did it AGAIN!"

            The entire room went wild the first time Mark Valade hit that message. He kinda hated me for that...
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            • Posted by $ 16 hours, 12 minutes ago
              Brilliant. If I'd been Mark, I'd have saluted you and offered to buy lunch. If I'm a moron and someone points it out like that, I have to respect it, and laugh at myself.
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              • Posted by CaptainKirk 15 hours, 52 minutes ago
                Yeah, not so much. I was a Jr. in HS. He was a Senior, and he was the student SysOp. A Cherished title. But having a Jr. show him up was bit over the top for him. The fact that I did that and he had ZERO idea how to fix it...

                He eventually stepped down and handed me the mantle 1/2 way through my Jr year. Making me the first Jr. that had the SysOp title!

                The teacher was okay with it, because I flew through everything. I Finished the 16 Week Cobol course in 1 month. And then the 16 Week Fortran course in 7 days! (Which completed my senior year classes in my junior year). So it became independent study.

                We learned so much.
                The teach, Tim Spanke, would let us into the School in the AM, and call the alarm company. He would leave and we would spend all saturday cranking on code, etc. And then we would call him at home, he would call the alarm company and say he ws leaving.

                you cannot fathom how much we learned. After 2yrs of that intensity. My first job, I was teaching the much older developer how to optimize their systems. Heck, I even showed them how to write "CODE" onto track 0 of tape, to make the Tape BOOTABLE. Something they thought was impossible.

                The value of having a teacher see something in you, and encourage you. Priceless. May he rest in peace.
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                • Posted by JakeOrilley 5 hours, 7 minutes ago
                  Agreed on the teacher seeing something in you! Had two of them like that, and would not be where I am without them.... And neither one of them, or me, knew that at the time.....
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                  • Posted by $ 3 hours, 11 minutes ago
                    I think most of us had a few of them. For me, it was one in grade school, and two in high school (one chemistry, one literature/english). I took every class I could that either of them taught; I knew the best way I could learn and grow was to be pushed to (or past) my limits. And Jake, I'm absolutely with you: I don't know where I'd be without them seeing something in me that made them push.
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                  • Posted by CaptainKirk 40 minutes ago
                    I had 2 in HS that will never know what they meant to me, DESPITE me telling them. LOL.
                    FWIW, they both came to my Surprise 21st Birthday Party. And I literally teared up.
                    I scored 9 percentile in English on the ACT(SAT Like). Anyways 91% did better than me, it was going to be my downfall.

                    I asked Mr. Wrosch for help. Sr. English, he made me redo 9th Grade English, 10th Grade English after school. On my own, except once per week we would meet and review. The first time I show up without doing all of the work, I was OUT!

                    He taught me to ALWAYS go back to basics to learn. And the PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. He knew Tim Spanke. So they talked. They strategized how to get me engaged (Tim told him to make it sound harder than it was, that I was that kind of DIE Trying person, and beating it would keep me going).

                    They MANIPULATED ME into becoming a well-rounded student. LOL. They set me up for success.
                    I wrote a decently long letter when Mr. Wrosch past. The family posted it, and I got pinged by people who were in attendance. It was the least I could do.
                    I'd still be 30 miles outside of Detroit.. Poor and Broke with no future had these 2 not saw something and encouraged me.
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  • Posted by Abaco 2 hours, 51 minutes ago
    Haha.... Can relate. I've been trying to teach young engineers the basic design protocols that I learned designing buildings with AutoCAD and paper drawings. The technology has been replaced along with the basic design review process. Now, engineers are working like maniacs at break-neck speed and producing screwed up designs. With the massive skill/age gap created by the Great Recession along with the pandemic it's me trying to communicate with a bunch of engineers in their 20s. Smart kids. But, it's like I'm talking Greek. And, they think it's normal to spend all your time fixing stuff in construction. I used to never do that. Makes one think...
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 4 hours, 58 minutes ago
    Learned COBOL working in an IBM Mainframe IT shop in the late 1980's. I detested that language as verbose and cumbersome (I know more common languages, C, Pascal, Fortran, Basic, LISP, but am not a programmer). However, I recently learned that COBOL has inherent features for data integrity that other (no other?) language has. Interesting.

    I guess Adm Grace Hopper wasn't all bad ;)
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  • Posted by fairbro 19 hours, 16 minutes ago
    Whe I arrived at DoD, i was told to look at the Cobol code of a black woman who had screwed up the entire comm system software. This for an agency which is responsible for world-wide US communication - embassies, military bases, etc. She had reversed the register readings - instead of going from right-to-left, she went left-to-right - like ASCII code for the character "9" is 57, and its binary representation is 00111001 - however she set the registers backwards - 10011100. She was an affirmative action hire with a degree in psychology, while the position was supposed to require a tech degree. She reopeatedly threatened management with lawsuits if she was not constantly promoted. One time I informed her I knew the minister at her Alabama church, and she accused me of being in the KKK (Our churches worked together). Dumb as a rock, last I heard she had transferred to the IRS, was pulling down $250k in Senior Executive Service.

    My first boss there was also black, who wasted a scholarship to Carnegie-Mellon (their wishful affirmative action program attempted to help selected blacks, who simply lacked the ability to get through their hi-tech progams) and spent the whole day in the next cubical on the phone proselytizing for his church and arguing with his ex-wife.

    I did all the coding for these underqualifed jerks who blamed all their problems on "racists".
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  • Posted by fairbro 19 hours, 41 minutes ago
    Did anybody have an Amiga or Atari? I wrote "Audio Gallery" in 1989 but MSFT came along and bankrupted all other platforms, except Apple, they clung on the edge with a 5% share. MSFT set back technology about 10-15 years.
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  • Posted by JakeOrilley 4 days, 1 hour ago
    "Coding Regimen"?? That is a slap of reality! I agree - feelin' old.....
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    • Posted by CaptainKirk 1 day ago
      This is what happens when writers of articles and editors have no clue what they are writing about.

      I am confident NOBODY on the DOGE team that codes called COBOL a "Regimen". Having worked briefly with COBOL and PL/X (a custom variant of PL/1)... I have better names for cobol.

      But good luck getting rid of it. (I remember opening a DB table, and seeing a group of 8 fields, repeated like 24 times in a row, numbered, and when I asked WTH? I was told. Oh, that's how COBOL stores an ARRAY of options. I said "Well it's ONE way to do it. And it's clearly wrong"... But the normal way takes too many I/O cycles, LOL).

      So, the upside of the COBOL is that it is working.
      After that. Ughh.

      In my book, you add another language inside the cobol code, a more modern language, like Python.
      Make them interoperate. And slowly rewrite the system into Pythonized COBOL. Until you have nothing but Python remaining. Then refactor it to normal.

      Otherwise, having worked on huge code bases. Good luck. It aint moving unless you just write a new version and switch.

      Meanwhile... CitiBank still using their COBOL screens! While you scan your card and type a pin into a machine.
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      • Posted by mccannon01 21 hours, 19 minutes ago
        Pythonized COBOL, LOL, I like that.

        We had an old saying, "Real programmers can write FORTRAN code in any language." If that didn't work, assembly would have to do, LOL.
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        • Posted by CaptainKirk 21 hours, 4 minutes ago
          My favorite FORTRAN joke:

          God is Real... Unless declared otherwise...

          For non programmers, variables starting with various letters had various types. G variables were a Real type (meaning a floating point/not an integer, like A-F, specifically I)

          My next favorite FORTRAN nugget.
          The values of numbers were stored in an array.
          You could write:
          7 = 5
          And change the value of "7" to be equal to 5.
          I believe this is called BAD PROGRAMMING.
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          • Posted by $ 20 hours, 57 minutes ago
            Clapping..I like nerd jokes. (And no, that was not an insult. I wear it with honor. My "badge": I had a pocket protector in high school, and I was on the chess team.)
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            • Posted by mccannon01 5 hours, 54 minutes ago
              YES! I wore pocket protectors through high school and most of my programming career, too! I wasn't on the chess team, but burned a lot of HS lunch breaks with the chess board. I wasn't a complete nerd in HS, though, because I was stupid enough to sneak out for a smoke.
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        • Posted by $ 21 hours, 10 minutes ago
          Interrogating and loading registers...now that IS a blast from the past.
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          • Posted by CaptainKirk 20 hours, 59 minutes ago
            I grew up on a PDP-11/34a in High School.
            I taught myself MACRO-11 Assembler. Which was a lot like Motorola Assembly. Very Rich. Unlike Intel, Uggh...

            Later, I found C, and I took to it like a duck in water. I actually rewrote one of Peter Nortons utilities and sent it back to them, I have a letter on their letter head while I was still a student, LOL.

            Anyways... While learning C, I found out. It was first written on a PDP-8 and it was made to reflect the ASSEMBLY on that machine, so it was easy to transform almost right into assembly.

            Everything was so simple in those days. C++ did to C what the Alphabet did to Math... (An algebra Joke my daughter loved... I love x. I have no problem with x. Except I hate finding him! My life would be a lot easier if X wasn't always needing to be found!)
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            • Posted by mccannon01 5 hours, 32 minutes ago
              Back in the '70s I wanted to get some experience on the PDP-11 in our department, but it never really happened. I got assigned to a CDC Cyber-18 job and then HP-1000 for a time. The department bought a Data General Eclipse S/130 and found out it wouldn't do the job they bought it for. Oops. It was programmed to run diagnostics on itself so when management came to see what we were doing it's lights would be blinking like it was doing something. This went on for a year and I was approached to program it (FORTRAN 5 - DGs flavor on the Eclipse) for a special project. I was offered the seemingly impossible schedule and bet a steak dinner from the boss I could do it with the help of a college intern. I got my steak. I later saw a meme regarding the Eclipse: 101 uses for an Eclipse S/130, #1: Boat anchor. Apparently others weren't enamored by it, either.
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