Fred Thompson vs George Patton vs Kipling

Posted by Hiraghm 12 years, 3 months ago to Philosophy
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One of the Youtube video's of John Galt's speech begins with Sen Fred Thompson speechifying:

"Our country has shed more blood for the freedom of other people than any other country in the history of the world. We are steeped in the tradition of honor, and sacrifice for the greater good. I believe we are once again..."

So Thompson invokes sacrificing individuals for "the greater good" which in this context is the freedom of other people.

I remember another speech with a subtle difference:

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."

For Patton, the priority wasn't sacrificing one's own people for the freedom of others, but sacrificing others for the freedom of one's own people.

Mind you, he wasn't a libertarian:
"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of bullshit."

I disagree with this, as well. The German and Russian armies were juggernauts. They fought expertly as teams, and, the Russians in particular, managed to butcher millions of their own troops this way. But when it got down to the nut-cutting, when units were cut off and still had to be effective, it was American-style individuality that came to the fore and made the difference.

And my favorite poet, Kipling, had yet another, but similar take on it:

"Now, this is the faith that the White Men hold--
When they build their homes afar--
"Freedom for ourselves and freedom for our sons
And, failing freedom, War."
We have proved our faith--bear witness to our faith,
Dear souls of freemen slain!
Oh, well for the world when the White Men join
To prove their faith again!"

(Song of the White Men - http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/ki...)

The subtle difference is, of course, that, imo, you fight for you and yours' freedom, not for the freedom of others who may neither want nor understand it.

Now, Thompson's been touted as a "conservative", when in reality, like Bush, McCain, and other purported "conservatives", he's really simply another progressive.
Perhaps the greatest revelation in politics in the modern era is the recent realization, which comes too late, that "Republican" and "Conservative" are not synonymous.

The idea that there are people out there who do not want freedom may seem radical, but think about it a minute. Think about the popularity of Obamacare, and government dependency programs. Democracies are almost as rare in the world as are republics, and the most common form of government to day is oligarchy under the disguise of monarchy or democracy. If, as the Founding Fathers maintained, governments rule by the consent of the governed, then there should have already been many more popular uprisings and rebellions in the world. If the Mullahs of Iran are as unpopular with the people of Iran as some in the press would have us believe, how could the Iranian military stand against the people? And having been taken from the people... how could they be used against their own friends and family?
The Egyptian people, and particularly the military, we were told, loved America and wanted democracy. Yet what happened in Egypt? The undemocratic Moslem Brotherhood got into power, and when they were deposed by the military, the military maintained control, they didn't turn it over to a democratically elected government (perhaps because, if they had, the Moslem Brotherhood would be back in power, thus reinforcing my assertion that most people in the world don't want freedom).


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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 12 years, 3 months ago
    Hello Hiraghm,
    Excellent writing... Thought provoking... Rings true... You believe you may not be welcome in the Gultch or fit in, but you have skills and could easily operate or write for the Gulch Gazette. And as long as you aspire to the Galt pledge, "I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." why would you not be welcome?
    While I do enjoy the prose of Rudyard Kipling, his poem "The White Mans Burden" and some of his other writings leave me with doubts about his political philosophy. Mark Twain even had some reservations regarding that particular poem. It is however a matter of interpretation... He was also considered a proponent for British imperialism by many... I really enjoyed the movie adaptation of "The Man Who Would Be King" with Sean Connery and Michael Cain.
    Respectfully,
    O.A.
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    • Posted by 12 years, 3 months ago
      "The Man Who Would Be King" was one of my favorite movies.

      Bit of trivia I learned after that movie: "Khafiristan" means "land of the unbelievers". After a little research and reasoning, I figured out that "Khafir" means "unbeliever".... and "Kaffer" is a (presumably derogatory) slang the British used to describe Africans and Indians, I would guess because they weren't Christian.

      Let's just say I like Kipling more than I like Twain... and I don't dislike Twain (my favorite Twain-ism: "Superfluous. Super-fluous. It is a good word, and bears much repeating".)
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  • Posted by $ johnrobert2 12 years, 3 months ago
    Individual soldiers, trained to operate alone or in small groups. Reminds me of a concept in a book by Gordon Dickson, "Tactics of Mistake", which was the seminal Dorsai novel.
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years, 3 months ago
    individuality in the military:
    you make interesting points. In fact, our most effective fighting units have found that a rigid command structure in which one person or small number of persons making all the decisions, have proven to be much less effective than small groups of highly trained soldiers who all possess power to make input on "the plan" and to act independently within the plan. The strongest asset of a human being is to think, not to be a robot.
    Yes, I am constantly amazed at people's ability to to not use reason.
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    • Posted by 12 years, 3 months ago
      The Berserker novels of Fred Saberhagen are among my favorites.

      A quote from Stone Place: "The world was bad, and all men were fools, but some men would not be crushed; that was a thing worth telling" - Mitchell Spain.

      I've always wanted to write a series of stories that are the antithesis of the Terminator, Berserkers, etc. Stories where the machines were the heroes, created by men, who saved Mankind. Soldiers of the mind...

      Thanks for making me remember the Berserker stories and that quote; that quote was originally what "Roarke's Drift" was supposed to be about; I'd forgotten.

      Oh! I was thinking about "Roarke's Drift" at work this morning, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to quote Hillary Clinton w/o giving her credit, in the first chapter.

      Ernie Pryce (one of the main protagonists) asks Eddie Roarke, as he's about to plunge off of the bridge over the Oklahoma (nee Canadian) bridge:
      "What difference will it have made?"
      Eddie, at first misunderstands this as "What difference does it make?" thinking Ernie is making light of Eddie's impending act. But he catches the phrasing, and asks Ernie what he meant.
      "What difference will your life have made, if you end it now?"
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      • Posted by khalling 12 years, 3 months ago
        "I've always wanted to write a series of stories ... where the machines were the heroes, created by men, who saved Mankind. Soldiers of the mind..".
        danger, will robinson
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      • Posted by $ johnrobert2 12 years, 3 months ago
        I keep remembering a short story titled "Thou Good and Faithful". Concerned a return of mankind's descendants to Earth after millennia of absence and found a world of robots. The denouement was the world had been left to the robots by their human masters after long and faithful service and mankind had left. There was a plaque left behind commemorating the event and ending, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant." A very touching story and how machines, when properly used, can free man to
        realize his full potential. For the same reason, I hope nanotechnology can be utilized to free man from illness and aging and allow him lifetimes to gather and use knowledge to his betterment. (Silly boy, such dreams are too wonderful to happen.)
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        • Posted by 12 years, 3 months ago
          Oh, yeah, and in those anthologies I talked about in another posting, there's a story called "The Battle" (I think) where we use robots to fight the battle of Armageddon, because it's just too deadly for humans to last even seconds in the holocaust, in spite of the pleadings of religious leaders that *some* humans be allowed to participate.
          At the end of the battle, the Spirit of the Lord walks the battlefield, resurrecting the robots, and He takes them to heaven with Him... not us.

          I don't know what reminded me of it, but there's a short story by Arthur C. Clarke I would bet nobody will ever read again... I think it was called "The Plague" or some such...

          It turns out that Earth was a colony of an interstellar civilization; an outpost. A plague broke out among the colonists, and so the civilization quarantined Earth. Now, they sent a ship back to retrieve the surviving colonists. The story consists of a descriptive message sent by the rescue ships (maybe that's what it was called, "Rescue Party"... hm...), detailing what happened and why Earth was quarantined.

          The last line of the message reads, roughly, "If any of you are still white, we are here to rescue you". That ending floored me. Especially coming from Clarke, not noted for any racist tendencies.
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