There is some good discussion here.
Correction- Turkey was once a secular Islamic state, not so now, religious fanatics are in the top positions in government.

Fascinating. Thanks. Learn something every day!

Sufism is a more spiritual belief system that accepts submission to God is through love and tolerance. It predates Wahabbism, Baathist, and Taliban teaching. The "whirling dervishes" are Sufi, using the mezmerizing form of dance as a kind of meditation to help focus on achieving a closer relationship with God. http://content.time.com/time/world/artic...

I'm familiar with Sunni, Shia, Wahab, and Baath, but never heard of Sufi. Is that yet another sub-sect of Islam? Can you provide more information as to origin, etc.? It would certainly put them at odds with both the Qu'ran and the other sects.

Not all Muslims believe in conversion by force. The Sufis reject violence in the name of God, just as one example.

I focus on the tenets, and there is no resemblance at all between Islam and either Judaism or Christianity. Islam denies the role of a Savior. Judaism claims He has not come but will while Christianity asserts that He did come.

You are welcome to believe what you choose. At least until the Muslims have you at sword-point. I, myself, prefer the tolerance of the Jews and Christians.

This reminded me of a vision I had this morning while listening to commentary regarding ISIS. I imagined a scene where these jihadists raided a region and slaughtered everybody. Soon, there was nobody left except themselves. Then, they slaughtered each other. Then, there was nobody left.

The End

All forms of practiced religion are inventions of humanity, whatever your views are on deity. Mohammad was a camel driver in caravans that carried the wealth of Jews and Christians, so his exposure to those faiths influenced his creation of Islam, whatever the source of his inspiration that inspired him to testify.

Excellent point.

Some people like to be able to scapegoat others (including God, etc.) for their decisions. It is truly a free man who proclaims responsibility for his/her actions no matter what they be.

False. Islam rejects Christ as the Savior, limiting him to just another incidental prophet and proclaiming Mohammed as the prophet to end all prophets.

Now one can say that the Arabs are descendants of Abraham through Ishmael and that is largely true, but the religion of Islam was invented by Mohammed - it is not an offshoot of either Christianity or Judaism.

What? You mean like use reason and respect other human beings?

But that wouldn't allow us to go on our power trips and dream about our 72 virgins while covered in the blood of the most recently beheaded infidel! Such sacrilege!

[PS. I'd like to call that sarcasm, but unfortunately for these people, it is really the way they think.]

You have piqued my interest. Please message me your idea.

Nice point - and useful for discussions with progressives! I will probably find this useful.

Jan

Your insight into tribal and collectivist thinking is right on the mark, and also explains modern Progressivism as the recidivist slide back into tribalism that it is. Progressives emphasize collectivist goals and societal regulation as an evolutionary achievement of a superior society, when in reality it represents regressive backsliding from individual freedom and responsibility.

please note that I wrote arab muslim. Malaysian's are a different breed of people. they are productive and are part of the western world.

I usually refer to them as Jihadist Muslims. One of the difficulties is that there are so many Muslims, that even 10% of them is a very big number. When you talk about millions, it seems there is a Muslim terrorist lurking around every corner. Add to this the "good" Muslims are not speaking out against the Jihadists to any great extent and you get a distrust of every person of that faith.

Further, as to attitudes in the Gulch, Rand believed that the very idea of anyone basing their lives on faith is a contradiction based on an incorrect premise. As a result of that, you have Randoids who follow every aspect of Objectivism except when it comes to religion. Nathaniel Branden showed how religious people could be a part of Objectivism when he said that while he is an atheist, he is not a militant one. That eliminates all the screwballs that want to take down the ten commandments, etc.

Done. Check your message box. I almost went to the limit.

What the Muslims all want is a Universal Muslim Caliphate. If they can accomplish that, there will continue to be internal squabbling but it will be a Muslim Europe, and Middle East with no Israel or secular country to interfere with them. And it won't stop there.

I would be sorry were you correct. Perhaps a difference is that the Muslims I know are Malaysian - they dress in various styles (jogbra and hip-huggers and headscarf is stunning; some of them do not wear the scarf at all; many wear beautiful flowing dresses and robes) and get along well with their neighbors of different faiths. (One of them I knew could suss out your password by watching your type it once from across the room. She was a great technical support and installation person!)

I am making the distinction between 'Muslim' and 'fanatic'. I really do not give a hoot if fanatics kill each other...but I do care if people who are young and innocent are turned to glass and if people who are against the fanatics, but who live next door to them, are tossed in the same bucket as the extremists.

Jan

Jan, I question your knowledge of how the arab mind works or doesn't work. The muslim arabs have chosen to remain in the 7th century. I have known many Israelis and they look at the youth of the arab world as future fighters against them, so they think nothing of killing these kids, sorry to say that but it is true. the mothers of these youth support them so they too are the enemy. I grew up neighboring an arab community here in the states so I was exposed to their lack of thinking or as Ayn Rand would say lack reason. I just read on MEMRI that the isis people will not only not back down from the bombing that we are now doing but will I expect expand their efforts else where around the world and that may very well mean attacks here in the USA. Not a pleasant thought is it. so the answer to ending this tragic situation is to turn the desert to glass. you can believe as you will but these arabs are the missing link, they look like humans but the have proven time and time again that they do not function like humans.

puzzlelady -

You have stated an important and often overlooked piece of the puzzle. Tribal societies are collectivist non-egalitarian units where the life of the individual is regulated from birth to death. (Non-egalitarian in that the chief is overtly supposed to get the best stuff - there is no facade of equal sharing.) This is where everyone started.

We have worked our way into a world where the individual matters, but a successful religion that 'controls the individual from birth to death' is very popular and comforting to Christians going from tribal European groups to kingdoms and eventually countries in the 5th-8th century AD...or tribal ME nomads going from the Mesolithic to evolved civilization in a few generations in the 7th century AD. It is very comforting to have a 'script' for your entire life instead of having 'parameters and paradigms' that oblige you to think and give you uncertainty.

The folks on this list are on the far end of the spectrum. Even those people here who believe in a deity believe in self-responsibility and individuality.

I think it is important to see that 'this is where we all came from', puzzlelady. 'Tribal collectivism' is not something that is only in 'somebody else's past'...it is in our past too. I am perplexed that it has carried over so successfully into modern life, however, especially in a part of the world that invented writing.

Jan

I disagree. I think that your extreme stance would make more sense to Muslims that it does to the people on this list. People are individuals, and those individuals who wish to be free of radical Mohammedism shouls not be turned to glass. If all of the innocent and intelligent people in the ME had a refuge 'bag of holding' they could climb into for the duration of this internecine war - then the extremists could happily slaughter each other. When it was over, the individuals could creep out of the hiding places and we could have a good time with them. The enemy is not the Muslim religion (please note Malaysia) but extremism.

Your 'solution' seems to be ...extreme...

Jan

Rand's attitude toward "nomads" and Middle East populations was that theirs is the "tribal" mentality, and she opposed tribalism as the antithesis of individualism. For a long time she didn't even endorse Israel, notwithstanding that she herself was Jewish, until she came to see Israel as a democracy through persuasion from her many Jewish associates.

As the foremost defender of individualism, she had no use for collectivism, the most primitive forerunner of which system is tribalism. And she was completely correct, since unthinking adherence to the tribe, or hive, or group, is tantamount to irrational mob hysteria. And religious dogma is the chief indoctrination tool for mob cohesion. Individualists and free thinkers are not invited and may well be persecuted.

My own view is that tribes were a necessary step in human evolution, and the sanctity of the individual was the product of a higher stage of intellectual development, the Enlightenment and the founding of the American premise of individual rights. And these rights are ever imperiled by a resurgence of group think and the promotion of group rights, to which individuals are to be subordinated. That humans are willing to murder each other over these differences is a tragic aberration and an obliteration of the Golden Rule ethic to which all profess to pay lip service.

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