A story, when talking with a libertarian, I said I am not really of that persuasion, more of an Objectivist - ie Ayn Rand. The reply, in good humor, was -"Ah an extreme left winger."
Now I am called a Statist. Oh my!

Your are spouting statist propaganda and gibberish.

It is highly illogical to propose that a non-voluntarist organization is a solution to non-voluntary actions against you. That's like saying in order to be free you need to become a slave. What kind of fucked up reasoning is this?

Of course my power is weak. Everyone specializes in their area of expertise. If you need defense and you don't have the skills, hire a professional! There is no need to become a slave of a monopolist security service provider.

The libertarian confusion is to believe in limited government. I have never seen such strong delusions as ones that libertarians possess. The conflict that exists in their reasoning is irreconcilable. The only resolution is to abandon the idea of government altogether.

We must first define what we mean by 'government'.

To me, 'government' is synonymous with 'the state'. The state is an organization that has the following properties:
- monopolist by force
- authority to use force at its discretion
- authority to make laws
- operates within its proclaimed borders/domain/geographical area

All of the above properties are abominable violation of the non-aggression principle/voluntarism.
- one is not allowed to impose a monopoly by force
- force may not be used unless for defense
- laws cannot be decreed, they exist by logic
- enforcement of borders of public/unowned land is aggression

If you truly adhere to voluntarism then you must denounce statism.

I agree.
Taking responsibility for your own existence is the only decision. When you outsource your responsibility (and therefore your voice) to a government, you lose.
No rulers.

Proper role of government is to not exist!

Why can't individuals enforce contracts? Why does someone get to hold a bigger gun?

If it were up to me?
1. Enforce contracts
2. Secure the border
3. Fix potholes

At most

The Organic Act established DC .... the swamp.
When President Trump said he was giving the country back to The People .... draining the swamp .... is the first step. Re-convening an organic Congress, that was disbanded in 1861, is the next step. This second step requires We The People to awaken and take knowledgeable actions toward this re-establishment.

This is the reason for my studies. As an oath-sworn Serviceman, never relieved of oath, it is my sworn Duty.

Nah, welfare of the US is white blood cells, eliminating rioting groups. You are all deputized, go forth and clean... that is welfare! Just like my COVID recovery.

...and we're on the slippery slope that wasn't avoided and got us where we are. As in a very large group of people are going to riot and burn our cities, which would be bad for the general welfare of the US, so shouldn't we send them a check every month to keep a lid on things?

Yep.

.....that's collectivism 🤔

But isn't a keystone, What is the General Welfare of the US?" Congress simply need say, "Wisconsin's train system is critical to the welfare of the US" Then the courts would have to argue with them?

Yes. To add, this may be worth the read:

https://constitutionstudy.com/2018/10...

The wording isn't "promote" the general welfare, but is "provide" within the phrase: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;"

The argument put forth is the phrase specifically refers to the "United States" and not to individual states or individual people. If this argument is true, then the gigantic charity known as the "welfare state", where benefits are bestowed upon states or citizens, run by the government is unconstitutional.

Damn it. That sounds very well developed, so I have to go read and figure out what Admiralty Law and the Organic Act are! Well, I said I came here for an education ;)

Contemporary courts are of Tribunal Admiralty in nature. They have been corporatized following the Organic Act of 1871. These are Statutory Courts not organic. The organic jurisdiction exists but needs discovery and application by The People.
I spend at least two hours a day learning the "ropes". This is definitely easier to learn with decades of business, contract and general life experience than starting out as a college undergrad. I'm not easily programmed with contemporary beliefs in law.

Definitely understand where you are going, but the courts are reinterpreting the Constitution all over the place today with word games. Relying on an reference is risky.

Welfare (formerly Wellfare) from Webster's 1828 dictionary.

1. Exemption from misfortune, sickness, calamity
or evil; the enjoyment cf health
and the common blessings of life ; prosperity
; happiness; applied to persons.

2. Exemption from any unusual evil or calamity
; the enjoyment of peace and prosperity.
or the ordinary blessings of society
and civil government; applied lo states.

This is why I use this reference and Black's 4th or 6th for Constitutional Interpretation. General and Promote have very similar, yet dissimilar context of definition than today's "dictionary".

Ok. Sounds like a good collection of facts.

I knew some of those guys. They were anarchists, sort of to the left of Murray Rothbard, but wanted Rand's blessing.

Ohio used to have an exemption for steam boilers that were in antique farm equipment. No inspection required. Here's the unfortunate result in which five people died: https://www.dli.mn.gov/workers/boiler...

I mostly do my own residential wiring, but it's always to the NFPA code, and my work always passes inspection.

On the other hand, I have been a victim of someone who wanted to use regulations against me, reporting me for keeping my horses poorly. It turns out that there was a crook who would observe one elderly horse at a farm doing poorly, have her tamed inspector condemn all the horses, and then come in as a "saviour" and take the horses and sell them for meat. Didn't get our horses.

We gave up on one part of our farm operation after having been told we would need to put five-foot high chain link around our 100 acres and establish a guard and sign-in for visitors. That small part of our operations was grossing $3000 a year. How much would that fence cost? Would we ever pay off the investment in the fence? Maybe $12 per linear foot of fence, not thinking about gates? 15,000 feet? That'll be $180,000. Pay it off from the $3000 per year? 60 years.

Promote the general welfare is VERY ambiguous , and can easily be warped to describe welfare, free college and free medical coverage. Be very careful. Both people and the government will drive to the limits every time in every case.


The welfare of the people is the alibi of tyrants. A Camus.

Well the government can institute them, or leave it to the buyer. Ship certifications and ASME boiler codes are generally not government instituted. There is no need for the government to be involved, and they are NOT in either certification I describe.

Do these still apply? Do these need clarification? Do the functions of any form of governance adhere to the principles?

Establish Justice
Insure domestic Tranquility
Provide for the common Defense
Promote the general Welfare
Secure the blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity

Can a philosophical preamble be iterated that past transgressions be preempted by such declaration?
Is the entire educational process of anything above provide for informed consent to participate?

I'm not sure what "Libertarians" believe. I also know that stamps and codes are the same as patents and are used as government enforced monopolies rather than "safety" like so many triple+ vaxxed sheep like to think.
Government protecting people is a hilarious notion. See: FDA.

Is that what true Libertarians believe? Wow. I must be something else.

... or do Libertarians believe there is a place for Government where the clearly evident, monotonic optimization of Capitalism finds a local minima and must be set free?

I think more people died from steam boilers exploding, prior to establishing the ASME boiler codes. Get the stamp from the non-government agency...