I would argue that the levering up is actually money printing and contributes to inflation and general misallocation of resources. The financial system needs to be changed to remove this issue. That is a separate topic.

If I understand you correctly, you seem to be under the impression that somehow money leaving the country causes a problem for you. However, I would argue that money leaving the country decreases demand for products available for purchase in the country, making prices cheaper. So, my conclusion is that you are benefiting from this activity. The products that you buy have less demand, lower price, and you can buy more of them with the same amount of money that you have. The money they send is not your money but their money, assuming we can ignore welfare.

Production is the source of wealth, not money creation. Money creation is theft if not done proportionally and at the same time as production.

I would agree with you that it would be bad for somebody untrained to do the work that requires a certain amount of training. However, I think that the lack of trained electricians is a consequence of money printing and inflation. It think what is going on is that it is not worth it anymore for people to go to vocational schools to get trained for the job because it pays so little. It is not worth it for builders to pay anything higher because then the houses would be unaffordable. Untrained illegals is the only way to do it economically. All of this exists because the system is being squeezed by the parasites for all its wealth. You can't cheat reality, wealth has to come out of somebody's pocket. Money printing and taxation has consequences.

Having said all that, I should also agree with you that the issue is far more complicated than what we imagine. USD being the reserve currency of the world has a lot to do with these problems. Also, the fact that most other countries have higher predation than what is in the US is important. I would say that we haven't even touched some of the true root causes of our problems.

I do want to add that the illegal immigration is also allowed for a different reason. The democrats are likely using it for political gains. Latin America is more or less collectivist, so, importing that population probably helps out socialists win elections.

I'm not sure that I grasped your gist.

IMHO, what made US a powerhouse was production and relatively low amount of predation in society. Once the money printing got under way (and other things like taxes), it became uneconomical to produce in the US due to cost of living going up due to internal inflation caused by money printing (and other kinds of taxation), so the production started moving overseas. Now many in the US are engaged in some kind of scam or less-than-honest business and the US is producing less and less wealth as time goes on. Look at the stats, half the economy in the US is government related work pretty much. Eventually, US is going to be a third world country.

Americans need to stop blaming other countries for their problems and look within.

China isn't doing so hot either. They aren't going to take the #1 spot unless they solve their corruption/predation problems. I don't see them doing that any time soon. They just received a temporary boost from cheap labor due to demographics and IP transfers, which is why they've experienced recent progress, but that is going away.

Who cares about being #1 anyway? What is important is to live a life worth living.

If the US gets into a fight with China sometime in the future, it would likely be a fight of two cripples. It might not look that way to you now, but trust me, things are deteriorating fast...

If China wants to become a world superpower, they need to be productive. That is hard to do when your government is a bunch of thieves and the citizenry not much better either.

By the way, slavery and child labor isn't necessarily cheaper. It is only cheaper now because of high cost of living in the US. In normal case, it is more expensive than factory production and automation.

I will beg to differ, predation is not a symptom but the cause of poverty and the like. It is obviously very hard to accumulate capital or even make a living if your earnings are continually getting stolen from you via exorbitant taxation/inflation and other schemes.

I can't agree with your 'just get a job' argument. In a lot of cases, getting a job will cost you more than not getting a job.

Someone correct me if I am wrong on any of this.

What you are point at is a symptom of the problem. Homeless do not buy very much. Those producing can get children to make their goods overseas for Pennys compared to here, even using illegals.

The only explanation that fits is the deconstruction of the pillars that made america a powerhouse is china wanting to take that global role. As explained before, buying and blackmailing politicians into gilded servitude, this would include big business and media, is a symptom of that desire to move from a distant #2 to #1.

The problem is that the productive people who need stuff done in society can't pay for it (fairly).
The only people who can pay fairly are the parasites who have created (printed) money.
That's how the wealth transfer works. So, you would be working for thieves.
Those guys usually waste resources, so, you would be contributing to your own destruction.

What needs to change is the way money is created. The only people who should be allowed to create money are those that create an equivalent amount of physical wealth. It does kind of work like that somewhat, but not to the fullest extent. There are a lot of holes in the system.

I agree that safety net is bullshit. But I think it exists to prevent revolt. See, the thieves are stealing so much from everybody only a few can make it in such a hostile environment.

Your 'americanized chinese proverb' is exactly what I would call 'predation'.

Predation is exactly the root cause, as I've mentioned before.

In this country poverty is manufactured via influence or sloth with the equally manufactured class system. Money is CREATED, there is no fixed amount that everyone needs to fight over. Can’t find work? Figure out what’s needed in society and create your occupation. Yeah, it’s that straightforward. Doubt it? Don’t I’ve done it and more.

When those in power to make decisions seek personal gain over their sworn elected duty, which they have taken oaths to protect and preserve, this nation sufferers.

What I provided was a solid list of root causes that result in homelessness, not symptoms. Homelessness is the symptom.

chinese proverb
Give a man a fish he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish he eats for a lifetime.

americanized chinese proverb
Get the man to fish, take his fish, and sell a portion of it back to him and the rest to others. Keep the profit for yourself, who did nothing to obtain the fish, and you have government.

The only solution is to take away the safety nets (control mechanisms) and let people sink or swim based on their own ambition and desire to succeed. I have a rock sold plan for the how to of this as well, but again I’m on my phone. The fix is painful but necessary (aka tough love).

Thanks for the reply.

IMHO, you are listing things which seem to be symptoms rather than the causes.

Allow me to propose what may be the root cause of the issues.

The high level view is that the predatory elements of society are increasing in number and eating it from the inside.

The exact mechanics of homelessness is as follows:
1. Federal government overspends (prints money), private sector goes into more and more debt (prints money)
2. Some of the newly printed money are spent in real estate, causing the housing prices to go up
3. Housing costs go up but wages barely move, which means some people are no longer able to afford hosing
4. Some people become homeless and are not able to hold a job any more

I guess if you already own your home you wouldn't have this problem, but a lot of people rent.

Chinese government is as predatory as they come, however, I don't think they are the cause of high housing prices. Their success in subversion is an indication of weakness and rot in the society.

Americans won't work because prices of everything is going up but wages barely move. Eventually you have to give up on that job and look for something else. Sometimes something else is predation.

Government implement the minimum wage law to mask the problem that they created. I don't think it is working though. You can't escape reality with a decree.

Companies can't sustain payroll and employees can't sustain hosing prices because their productivity is getting siphoned off by money printing to such a degree that their work is no longer economically viable.

The push to eat bugs and increase immigration is probably government trying to increase productivity so that they can squeeze even more out of the population.

Production has been moving out of US because it became economically non-viable.

I think US and generally the 'west' is done for. The process started long time ago and it is well under way now. The end result is not very good. I don't think anything can be done, the momentum towards destruction is too great. The only solution is to leave and go someplace with the least amount of predation.

I appreciate the effort, and cannot completely disagree. It gets complicated. Quickly.

But the difference in "sending vs saving" money is stark. Money at a bank is USUALLY LEVERED up and FORCED back into the economy.

We know the Average leverage is ~ 15. Meaning a bank tends to loan out the same money, effectively, 15 times.

If you convert 1 BILLION of Savings into "Sendings".
Then the net impact is about $15 BILLION siphoned out of our economy.

When I withdrew a large sum and bought BTC with it. I got phone calls from the bank. My small business account just negatively impacted them. (And I thought it was MY money... LOL)

Finally, you are missing out on the "misallocation of motivational drive and a functional education". Have you noticed that Vocation Education schools were killed off... As the flood gates of immigration were opened? (We literally created a DEMAND for semi-skilled labor). The VocEd place in our neighborhood produced Mechanics, Plumbers, Builders, Electricians. In fact, they would get donated land/materials/TIME, and build a house from scratch. Then sell/donate it, and start a new one. So every set of students got real-world skills. When they graduated, many went on to own such businesses, or simply have jobs where they were already semi-trained at their jobs...

Oh, and we started destroying the Apprenticeship programs. My brother had to be an Electricians Apprentice while earning his Journeymans license. I don't even know if they do that any more.
My father was a Master Electrician. He called to complain (because he kept losing bids), that those houses had illegals doing the wiring with NO Licensed Electricians to monitor them... Code Enforcement said they are no longer enforcing that, because they don't have enough licensed people, for the number of houses needing to be wired... (This was 1/2 the value of having a license... ie, being required!)

Again, it gets complicated quickly. And I don't see ANY of this as an accident. But the reason we have SO FEW ELECTRICAL FIRES in America... Was Constantly Improving Electrical Codes. Licensure, permitting, which prohibited "poor jobs" being done consistently. My father was PROUD of the system, as he lived through the improvements. (We used to use CLOTH WRAPPED Wires! LOL)

I think #4 is the key to all of this with Rent prices a second consideration but I don't think piling people on top of one another is the answer either; actually, I think it's one of the causes of bad behavior etc.

I was trying to put forward the idea that they get more from welfare than they get from your job, so, it doesn't make sense for them to work. So, what happens is they never get started with a career, which keeps them on welfare indefinitely.

Additionally, you probably were not offering high enough wage for good quality candidates to apply. But it probably wouldn't make economic sense for you to offer much more. This is why production migrates out of the country. It becomes economically non-viable due to the conditions created by the money printing.

You might be right with some of these arguments, but let me try to play the devil's advocate a bit.

If they are sending money out of the economy, that would have a similar effect to saving (because the money doesn't come back into circulation in the economy right away). As I understand it, saving is better for an economy because it is as if the saver works for a smaller pay (temporarily). Once the money leaves the country, it probably doesn't come back for a while, so, the effect is a bit like saving. At least, as it occurs to me.

I would also like to take issue with the idea of too much competition for low-end jobs argument. Work is production. Production is good. It makes society rich. It occurs to me that if someone in society is willing to do the same job for less, we should let them because it makes society more rich in the end. I know it might hurt displaced (less efficient) workers but those guys will find other work soon enough. I don't believe there is a limited amount of jobs available in an economy. Theoretically speaking, what would happen is new industries would pop up making new products that were not economically viable before but that now have become economically viable due to the extra wealth available in the economy because of the increased productivity that displaced the workers in the first place. Although, I guess I should admit that the problem is that all this new wealth is instead going to be siphoned off by the parasite class (the state), so, maybe new industries will not pop up. My point would be that you might be right, but not for the reason you might think. Your problem is likely caused by the government stealing people's productivity and misallocating society's resources, not productive immigrants.

I guess not all immigrants are productive. If they make their living by stealing then that would create harm.

The remittance payments might be appreciated by foreign governments because it probably creates demand for their currency, allowing them to inflate it some more by printing. It seems to me that it would cause issues for the people of the foreign country because now they will have more money chasing the same amount of goods and services in their country.

Another thing with immigrants, assuming they are of good quality, is that they are cheap. It takes a fair amount of resources to produce adults. If you can get working age adults without having to pay for the first 18 years of their life then that increases 'reproductive' efficiency.

You are right about hiding inflation though. Increasing productivity will indeed hide inflation. So, I think what is going on is the US government is really happy about all this productivity increases caused by immigration, which is why they allow it, and they use it to hide inflation which they are causing by printing and overspending like drunken sailors. The only losers here are Americans who are not able to start those newly viable businesses I was talking about due to misallocation of wealth.

Maybe I am wrong on all of this, feel free to point out any flaws in my logic.

That's the kind of government solution to everything, excuses. Excuses only exacerbate the situation, no matter what the subject is. Democrats are famous for this kind of thinking.

The problem is that while LOWER costs increase efficiency. LOWER Salaries caused by TOO MUCH competition for low-end jobs.
Top that off with Immigrants sending TONS of money back home (banks love the fees)... Their countries appreciate the money coming in.
But it's money that would normally be spent helping OUR economy.

Also, in this case, I believe the lower costs are simply hiding the inflation being forced upon us. (Realizing that all working economies are naturally deflationary, because work improvements pay future dividends)

+1,000 ... I am so glad I commented, because I believe the response triggered getting here.
And getting here was TRULY WORTH IT!

ThanQ

fyi, I seldom down vote anyone. I didn't down vote you or anyone in this thread or any thread for quite a few months, maybe years.

a good friend sold his house in Seattle a few years back to rid himself of debt. The city and lawyers dragged out the sale for years to the point where what he received as equity wasn't enough to cover even half of his debt. His health deteriorated and he's never been the same. Robber barons.

Quick and dirty.
My take is straightforward. In hindsight it’s easy to see why things are as they’ve become. To assume #1 economically and militarily on the global scene China has bought and/or blackmailed enough of our government at all levels to implement to weaken us as a people and not just a nation. Covid proved we can be made to heel. Vaxx’s and masks visually validated that we can be compliant and do as told, even if it harms us or those we love.

Closer to the answer
Bought and paid for politicians enacted regulations and taxation to hurt american companies, small medium and large and favor their foreign masters. Naturally downstream, prices rise to cover cost. People can no longer afford what they want, and barely what they need. A cry goes out to raise wages. Approved. Half-wits who made poor life choices make careers out of unskilled jobs intended for teens and the elderly as supplemental income to flip burgers and act as cashiers for $15. Medium and small companies never designed to do so can’t sustain that payroll and instead automate or at least employ far less people. Half-wits join the unemployed. Government, in large part thanks to the covid shutdown, has people accustomed to taking a stipend rather than carving their own path and determining their own success. Housing and automobiles are now unaffordable, and even food, whose production has been deliberately decimated, is now mostly out of reach (eat bugs, stop growing food, stop eating meat), drug use increases as escapism is preferable to reality, the american dream dashed, people are millions disillusioned. One slip-up or poor choice and all is lost, and the homeless population expands.

Let’s add deliberate lawlessness (antifa, blm, occupy), understaffed and undertrained over-stepping police, perversion promoted as the new normal (by hollywood, teachers, politicians, and even parents), and politicians blaming everyone but themselves for the mess they made. Still, they know how to fix it; take from those who have and give food, shelter and clothing to those who no longer have. Is it really any wander that society, particularly the bedrock of it all the american family, is on the verge of falling apart.

Oh, I forgot the flood of illegals pouring in because “american’s won’t work” and the ruling classes need for more children to barter for, molest, murder and process for the fountain of youth. Aka more blackmail fodder increasing china’s and, I assume cartels, hold on our politicians, hollywood and wealthy.

End result, china is producing just about anything we need. We’re producing very little of what we need. We poised to go digital, and we have proof (canada, australia) that non compliance will result in a lockout of funds, internment in reeducation camps, and even death (starvation, jabs, thugs, etc.)

Off the cuff and hardly complete...but it makes a hell of a lot more sense. (incidentally, none of these countries/organizations get capitalization on purpose)

Couldn't possibly have anything to do with the insane taxes being charged in California? Or the record numbers of illegals who have low skill jobs...

There is no such rule you have to be a Gulcher to come into the Gulch! Down voting is all a part of the plan and I stand by what I said but since I can't see who downvoted it is a moot issue.

A pay cut from a job they never got hired for is still a net zero. I hired such idiots who were late the first and second day and never made it in on the third day. Others never made it back after they got their first weeks paycheck.

I only listed one reason. You are right. There are so many more. And the street universe grows and grows.

Fair enough. I’m working heavily from my phone so anything in-depth would take more time than I can give AND likely require a lot if typo coercion’s.

That said, I think what you posted as the source of the matter is incomplete, over simplified and also a symptom and not the source.

When I get home, if my brain is still willing, I’ll type out some of why things are what they are.

I was hoping to see your take in the post, which is why I asked.

This argument doesn't make too much sense to me. Theoretically, lower costs increase efficiency. But I guess the problem might be wealth 'redistribution' to those people.

Not sure why this got downvoted, it seems to be spot on... Maybe due to the minimum wage angle as that is something that is frowned upon in the libertarian circles.

The issue isn't the minimum wage though but the money printing which is causing the real estate to go up.

I don't know about public schools providing much education these days...

But I guess welfare is one issue because it stops people from making career progress as they usually have to take a pay cut to go back to work.