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Henry Ford vs. Elon Musk

Posted by freedomforall 1 week ago to Politics
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Excerpt:
"Henry Ford was the antithesis of Elon Musk. The latter uses government to force people into cars that are more expensive and less practical, thereby diminishing personal mobility. The former designed and built a car that cost less (each successive model year) and was far more versatile and practical than a horse and buggy, that freed people from being largely stuck where they were.

Ford did not use the power of the government to compel his rivals to subsidize his operations, as Musk has done (via the selling of what are styled “carbon credits” to other car companies, who are under regulatory duress to either build a certain number of EeeeeeeeeVeeeeees or buy “credit” – from Elon – for having built them).

The Model T was the antithesis of Tesla’s cars. The latter are designed to be very high-performance and for that reason very consumptive, of both power and raw materials. They are not designed for longevity or owner-serviceability. They are operationally fragile in that extreme conditions – as of high heat and extreme cold – greatly diminish their functionality.

The Model T was specifically designed to be as simple and practical as possible. It had no fuel or water pump. It did not even need a small starter battery in order to run as the engine was designed to be turned over by hand and – once running – magnetos kept it running."
SOURCE URL: https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2022/09/21/henry-ford-vs-elon-musk/


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  • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 1 week ago
    Out of all the things they've done and taken away, nevermind what they plan in the future, the hardest, the most painful thing for me...it the potential of taking my internal combustion engine away...it just plain hurts to even think about.
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    • Posted by 25n56il4 1 week ago
      I'm taking really good care of my 2014 Ford Explorer. It only has 40,000 miles on it. The Ford dealer wants it back, but I'm not trading until they wake up and shut up about EV's.
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      • Posted by $ Ben_C 6 days, 18 hours ago
        My 2013 Lincoln MKX AWD has 140,000 miles and is going strong. I take really good care of it - synthetic motor oil and good gas. Nothing is forever but I will drive this car until it keels over. At my age it may outlast me.
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      • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 1 week ago
        I've kept the 2007 Ford Ranger given to me by DeWalt when we all got laid off during the housing crisis. It now has 260K on the OD. and still runs great. All that seat time has molded it into a family member.
        The lefties will have to bury me in it.
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        • Posted by 25n56il4 1 week ago
          My husband died in 1996, but he loved his Ford Ranger. He thanked me many times for encouraging him to buy it. He had a 1967 Mustang when we got married and we have always preferred Fords.
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          • Posted by VetteGuy 3 days, 11 hours ago
            My wife had a 67 Mustang when we got married. Unfortunately it was a straight six with automatic, and couldn't get out of its own way. We gifted it to her dad, who drove it to work for years.
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            • Posted by $ katrinam41 3 days, 11 hours ago
              I bet he enjoyed it. Mine was a three-on the floor with a 289ci engine. Small but it got to 105mph on the freeway at midnight. I just wanted to see if I could break 100. I did and loved it but the fear of a ticket stopped me from seeing just how fast my beast could go.
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        • Posted by 25n56il4 1 week ago
          I had a 2007 and a 2009 Ford Sport Truck. They were fun vehicles. But I love my Explorer. This is the first car I ever had that was made for ladies. It has everything on it to make a lady feel safe and happy.
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          • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 1 week ago
            My wife wanted a Ford Escape, the first one we bought her wasn't too bad but the 2019 is the most ugly, uncomfortable, awkward car I ever sat in and drove. It's never failed her and she likes it but for me...'We'll take my Ranger hon, unless you want to drive" is what I say all the time.
            They all look alike now days...most are downright evil looking. Cars had their own friendly personalities back in the day but these days, they are the sheep that the sheeple drive.
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  • Posted by FelixORiley 6 days, 18 hours ago
    Read Ashlee Vance's biography on Elon Musk. I just finished it on Audible. It is a very interesting story of a young fellow that is unafraid to "do".
    My son has a Tesla S. He loves it even with its fuel charging shortcomings. It's pretty cool, I must add.
    Also, since NASA is no longer much of an efficient player in space delivery systems, Musk has filled the gap with Space X and is doing so at costs MUCH less than NASA. American is again competing with China, Russia and Germany in space delivery. And this is not because of NASA, but because of private endeavors.. SpaceX and Tesla are employing thousands of people. I assume at competitive labor rates.
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  • Posted by GaryL 6 days, 18 hours ago
    I can't fault Musk for playing by the rules the world's governments put upon us all. If Elon gave me a nice EV I would immediately sell it because electricity here is more expensive than fossil fuels and most of the raw materials and minerals to build the cars come from China owned resources. Going green can go to hell!
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  • Posted by Eyecu2 6 days, 19 hours ago
    EV's will not happen. The next big thing in engines will be Hydrogen based ICE engines.
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    • Posted by bobbitchen34 6 days, 18 hours ago
      I believe this could happen if we lived in a country that worked together to make a better world. Look around though, that's not the goal anymore and it just sucks what we are turning into.
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      • Posted by Eyecu2 6 days, 17 hours ago
        I completely agree with your statement about the condition of this country.

        However I still have hope. It may take a very bloody revolution but I believe that it will happen.
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      • Posted by term2 6 days, 14 hours ago
        government control is the watchword. That is the end goal, and the practical effects of their programs arent even really considered or of much importance. Its the control it offers government that is the most important thing.
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    • Posted by term2 6 days, 14 hours ago
      At the rate the leftists are going, we will be back to walking and riding bicycles before EV's are mainstream. No one will be able to afford them except the elite leftists.
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    • Posted by FelixORiley 6 days, 18 hours ago
      I have heard that also. But the infrastructure that will be required to supply the Hydrogen is farther away than the EV charging stations.
      EVs will not happen with the overall engineering they have now. For them to be widely used, some on the go recharging must be engineered.
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  • Posted by $ Markus_Katabri 6 days, 21 hours ago
    I’m expecting His Muskiness to time the release of an affordable Tesla to just before the Big Three actually bring something innovative to market. After they have all the R&D capital tied up in it. He releases the Tesla Type T and steals the market share for the next 15 years. Is it good for the market?........NO. Is it good for Tesla? YES! And that’s exactly why he should do it. And we should all expect him to do it. Because it makes the most sense for the guy actually risking the effort.
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    • Posted by CaptainKirk 6 days, 19 hours ago
      Elon Musk is not in this to sell cars...

      He is OWNING the AI that will automate driving.
      He will license that, and let car makers make the cars. The profit is in the Technology.

      He will work with the government to create AI licensing/testing/validation.

      He is collecting and using YOUR cars data to build a master database to train the AIs.

      Right now, they can train an AI with over 2 Million HOURS of driving from REAL WORLD situations, and that is growing DAILY. Every Accident will be learned from, studied, and trained into the AI.

      At 2-3% density of AI Driven Vehicles. AIs will have everything they need to become near-perfect drivers.

      The vehicle is a data collection device, sold to rich people (because it turns out that NOBODY expects EXPENSIVE stuff to work without Hiccups. Ask any BMW owner if they would want to own one that is NOT under warranty! I did. I was surprised EVERYONE who drives newer BMWs said Basically... "Heck No! I'd switch brands first! But under Warranty, they fix everything!"

      Eye on the ball... The other side to this data... And the level of control...

      Imagine an Amber Alert. (Of course, turned of for Pelosi's Hubby)... They identify the car, the road, the direction, the timing, and they get 2,000 INTERNAL video feeds of the passengers, and quickly DISABLE the vehicle.

      Of course, it will work more like Golden Eye, or some such, and be aimed at innocent people with Trumped up Charges...

      But this is their Utopia they are building...

      And we are funding it!
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      • Posted by bobbitchen34 6 days, 17 hours ago
        I agree how nefarious this all is but you can't blame a company from gathering data. Case in point; I survived being rear ended by a large Volvo box truck and I was in a week old Ford Focus. The lesson of the exploding Pinto is probably what saved me.
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  • Posted by WilliamRThomas 6 days, 18 hours ago
    If you think Tesla depends even substantially on government subsidies, go learn the facts.

    If you think Ford never made deals with politicians, then go learn the facts.

    If you think Teslas don't last, learn the facts.

    If you think that by our standard the Model T was a very reliable or easy to drive car, learn the facts.
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    • Posted by 6 days, 18 hours ago
      Tesla only:
      Federal subsidies on cars sold through 2019 $3.4 billion
      Covid federal support subsidies $600 million
      Federal Regulatory credits $5 billion
      State and local subsidies $2.1 billion

      Tesla and SpaceX would have been bankrupt without federal subsidies and timely contracts.

      Many other companies' managements are just as guilty of feeding at the unconstitutional federal trough as Musk.
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      • Posted by WilliamRThomas 6 days, 17 hours ago
        Tesla got a DEPof energy loan in 2010. They paid it off much faster than required. Ford and other cos got much more from that program, but they didn't pay it off fast.

        Tesla benefited from the same electric car subsidies as other companies. But when Tesla no longer qualified for the subsidies, they still far outsold their competitor who still got the subsidy, and Tesla delivered over 50% per year growth despite being at a massive subsidy disadvantage.

        Tesla benefits from Carbon pollution trading credits, which other companies buy from Tesla, but that has never been essential to their business model.

        Elon Musk is on record as opposed to subsidies. He actually comes off as more libertarian than the vast majority of CEOS.

        I suppose you will refuse to take Social Security (or perhaps you already do refuse to take it). And I suppose that you refused to deduct interest payments from your taxes. After all, how dare you suck from the government teat!

        Ayn Rand said that, in a welfare state, it's not wrong to take the subsidies that your taxes pay for, as long as you don't endorse them. Tesla's actually been pretty good on this score.
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        • Posted by 6 days, 17 hours ago
          The posted amounts above do not include the loan and what other companies do doesn't excuse Musk.

          Tesla's sales of carbon credits far exceeds Tesla's net "profits".
          Without them and the other government subsidies Tesla would have been bankrupt. (Musk admitted this.)

          "Participants" are forced to pay into social security. The payments from social security are a return of the
          money previously taken by force, not a subsidy to support a business for profit. (That is why Rand
          accepted them and made her statement. She was not referring to a business that had not paid any
          taxes like Tesla.) Your comparison makes no sense except to excuse Musk and others from feeding
          on the rest of the public.

          So if Musk says he hates subsidies, his actions in taking subsidies (that are theft from other people
          without their consent) should not be held against him. That makes subsidies just fine according to your ethics.

          According to your ethics, Musk's thefts are no worse than other looters,
          and that makes those thefts just fine with you.
          I don't agree.
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          • Posted by WilliamRThomas 6 days, 16 hours ago
            Social security is not a savings scheme. It's Ponzi scheme. Most workers get a far higher return on social security taxes than they would on bonds, say.

            Tesla's profits have far exceeded carbon credits for quite a while now. Even when carbon credits were the margin, it just didn't matter. It was Tesla's trajectory investors were buying, not a few cents per share of GAAP profits in any quarter.

            Again, the carbon credits have never mattered for Tesla's business model, and without any per-unit subsidies (as in all 2022) their margins per car far exceed carbon credits per car.
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            • Posted by 6 days, 15 hours ago
              You just can't rationally defend Musk's actions so you keep trying to change the subject.
              Why investors buy Tesla shares is not relevant to the discussion. Neither is social security.
              Tesla has received more than $11 billion in subsidies and that amount increases with every day.
              He say's he hates subsidies and takes all he can get. What ethics! What a hypocrite!
              Musk's actions in that respect are those of a thief and looter.
              If Musk hadn't received those subsidies Tesla would not exist.
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              • Posted by WilliamRThomas 6 days, 10 hours ago
                Source for your $11 billion?

                You can't blame a company for taking what they didn't lobby for. They have a duty to maximize profits.

                You may keep up your Musk hate all you like.

                One thing about Ford, though: the creation of the Model T happened when the US was much more free-market than it is now, at least in the ways that were relevant to Ford. So you are comparing companies in quite different legal and cultural contexts.
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                • Posted by 6 days, 7 hours ago
                  Source: Google it as I did.
                  I don't hate Musk.
                  I admire his early successes.
                  I don't approve of his looting.
                  I agree the market is not as free, but Musk could have built his car company without looting.
                  They made the decision to take federal subsidies.
                  Would Hank Rearden have done that? No.
                  James Taggart? Yes.
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                  • Posted by WilliamRThomas 5 days, 21 hours ago
                    Dagny Taggart keeps Taggart Transcontinental running for quite some time despite the firm being a "looter" firm.

                    I guess Dagny's efforts weren't heroic then?
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                    • Posted by 5 days, 21 hours ago
                      You really don't see the difference?
                      Dagny didn't seek out the government funds, and Taggart wasn't built using government assistance. Dagny's character and ethics are displayed primarily in building the John Galt Line.
                      Musk's early success didn't result from government assistance, but he turned to the dark side with Tesla voluntarily taking looter funding like the 2nd-handers in AS.
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                      • Posted by WilliamRThomas 5 days, 20 hours ago
                        You are welcome to your view. But as I said, Tesla's business model does not and never has depended fundamentally of "looting" as you define it.

                        I am an Objectivist, but there are way too many libertarian purists in the world who blame anyone who succeeds in our mixed economy. Please look at essentials.
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                        • Posted by 5 days, 11 hours ago
                          Musk's ethics are an not example of Objectivist ethics.
                          There are lots of successful businesses that do not take government loot and succeed.
                          Because there are lots of white collar thieves and looters does not make the action ethical.
                          You appear to be saying that everyone should sacrifice their principles and feed from the federal trough (which is theft from others) because looting exists.
                          Is this an example of Objectivist principle ?

                          Musk admitted Tesla nearly failed even with all the government assistance they received.
                          You claim the business model never depended on government assistance (aka looting), but he did take the loot and Tesla still almost failed.
                          Tesla adjusted their vehicle pricing higher when government rebates were available, and lower when the government assistance expired.
                          That is hardly an example of the business model not being dependent. Actual business actions provide evidence of dependence.
                          You say the business model doesn't depend on assistance to succeed. That's easy to say but the facts don't support that.
                          If you have a rational financial analysis to support that assumption, please provide it.
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        • Posted by term2 6 days, 14 hours ago
          I pay so much in taxes that I will never get back what I pay, no matter how much I take from givernment in stimulus, SS payments, welfare, or anything else.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 6 days, 19 hours ago
    It should be noted that Teslas are largely out of the price range of common auto buyers without the massive government price subsidies - subsidies which come on top of the generous production and development subsidies Musk has already garnered. One can hardly call this a "market" solution. When one further investigates the supply chain and its heavy reliance on Chinese manufacturing and rare-earth materials, one must also question the long-term wisdom of reliance on electric vehicles - especially as a forced substitute for the reliable internal combustion engine!
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    • Posted by bobbitchen34 6 days, 18 hours ago
      Yes ! When Obama set NASA's goal to pay tribute to the Muslim religion I lost interest in space exploration. SpaceX has brought that back. Never thought I see rockets landing on their tail fins like in the early scifi movies.
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  • Posted by $ Markus_Katabri 5 days, 21 hours ago
    I am not ideologically opposed to EeeeeeeVeeeeees. If someone markets one that “makes sense” and improves my life in “substantial ways” ( being able to play words with friends while driving is not a substantial improvement ) Then I will plunk down some of my stored effort in trade. (means money...cuz that’s all it is)
    Until then I’ll continue driving my 1996 F-250 with a smile on my carbon covered face.
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  • Posted by $ gharkness 6 days, 17 hours ago
    Surprised no one has mentioned a car similar to one of these. If you think they are not under development TODAY, you are missing information. I don't know the future, of course, and these type of cars I know about will be sold first in, I think, Singapore, or another nation in that general area with fewer restrictions that are currently in force in the US. That is, once they are actually produced. It's still very early, but these are being developed as we type. Fun to think about!

    https://youtu.be/14dnrYyTLw4
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  • Posted by bobbitchen34 6 days, 18 hours ago
    This is an apples and oranges comparison even though it seems not to be. Completely different times. The government is forcing EVs and would be even if Tesla wasn't there. Ford of today, now there is a comparison. They are a big player in the EV future and want to eliminate the gas powered Mustang. But if you disagree I'll definitely listen.
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  • Posted by fairbro 5 days, 7 hours ago
    Yea, my daddy told me people would use the engine from the Model T as a motor, with a conveyer belt, to creatively power all sorts of things on the farm.
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  • Posted by tutor-turtle 6 days, 11 hours ago
    Who would buy a car or anything else that can be disabled, from the corporate HQ at the flick of a switch. No lie. Musk can and has turned off customers cars by not allowing them to recharge.
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  • Posted by term2 6 days, 14 hours ago
    Plus the switch from gasoline to electric cars is deliberately not well thought out. There is not enough lithium to make the batteries. and there is not enough electricity to power them, nor ways to efficiently charge them.

    I think the government wanted to drag evryone down into the mire of a great reset, the car mfrs wanted aomething new and "cool" to get people to buy ever more expensive new cars, and no one cared to actually think about what a transition would look like.

    The last thing I want is an electric car for at least 5-10 years. I can foresee that they will cost upwards of 100K and electricity will cost 2-3 times as much as it does not after this great reset
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  • Posted by $ katrinam41 3 days, 11 hours ago
    Speaking of electric cars, someone has just come up with a kit to convert gas engines to electric engines in your own garage. Has anyone else heard of tnis?
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