Regardless of where you stand on the issue, this judge was the first one to get it right: the definition of marriage is for the State to decide - not a Federal Judge.
Yes, "morally" was then rooted in religion *and cultural definitions and mores*. It's not nowadays; morality nowadays is Timothy Leary: If it feels good, do it.
Without cultural definitions and mores... there is no culture.
Bend your elbow backwards. Obviously your inability to do so represents restriction is a restriction on individual rights, period.
Or it could simply have something to do with the nature of homo sapiens.
It is against the law to kill someone outside of self-defense. This is a restriction on individual liberty, since it restricts one from enjoying eliminating so many who so badly need to be eliminated. Murder laws exist for the benefit of the society, not the benefit of the individual. It is up to the individual to defend himself; hence the 2nd Amendment protections.
So, we've established that your god is "individual rights", reality be damned.
"Calling a tail a leg doesn't make the name fit" - Robert A. Heinlein
There is no restriction on marriage based on race, creed or sexual orientation... it is what it is, and anything outside of that is not. Homosexuals can marry, provided they meet the same requirements as anyone else, the same requirements *I* have to meet: finding a willing member of the opposite sex.
I want to marry a giraffe. Saying that I cannot do so is a restriction on my individual rights. Period. But, if I am allowed to marry a giraffe, then "marriage" has been redefined to accommodate me, and quickly becomes meaningless. Which is what you want.
I drive a homophone to work, but I drive a paragraph home from work. I do these things because we have decided that words don't mean anything, that there is no objective reality, and everything is based on making people with certain afflictions feel not-bad.
I have decided to redefine "minivan" as "homophone", but only after 10pm. After 7am, "minivan" is redefined again as "paragraph". Why? Because words don't have to mean anything; because we don't have to have any concrete definitions, and because what I want supersedes the reality around me... if I'm like you.
Male and female humans mate. For life, in the wild, generally speaking. Marriage is the ritualization of this instinctive behavior. The ritualization has nothing to do with individualism, but about tribalism. Marriage, oddly enough, is a group thing, not an individual thing. It is a part of the panoply of ritual and semi-ritual activities that lubricate social interactions. For one thing it establishes within the tribe, "this is my woman; no other man may enjoy her". What you would call, "property rights". This isn't slavery, because he belongs to her, as well; you might say they trade value for value.
Note; it's not just that she may not screw around on him; no other man may enjoy her, as I said, making it a social contract on the tribe, not just between the two individuals.
This is not necessary among sexual deviants, since they don't mate. What they do may be fun, may be emotion-filled, but it's... deviant. It serves no purpose in the evolution and survival of the species, which, like it or not, tops individual liberty.
Society can survive those able to marry but unable to produce offspring getting married. But it can't long survive marriage being defined into meaninglessness.
There is in no way an objectivist belief that a government of any side should dictate a person's values or liberties. Marriage is one of those liberties and has only been restricted because of antiquated, anti-liberty beliefs from those with religion.
Any restrictions on marriage based on race, creed, sexual orientation is a restriction on individual rights. Period.
So propagtion - continuing the species beyond the terms of one's own lifespan - is the measure by which a personal relationship should be valued? That seems... selfless, at best.
So just a question, but if a lifestyle can't propagate itself naturally, doesn't that by very definition mean that it must mooch (or be a deviation) from the natural? Seems to me that this one is a rather open and shut case logically.
Can you explain why "Lovers of rationality and reason cannot... CANNOT support homosexuality as being 'normal"? It seems the issue regarding same sex marriage boils down to religion, and I posit that you "CANNOT" be a religious objectivist.
Agreed. It has to go back further and have a meaning beyond that.
Marriage was first and foremost the license for people to have sexual relations in the first place. That tends to get forgotten in all the rush. Children are a logical by-product, but (as you pointed out) are not a guaranteed result. My sister-in-law is a personal reminder of that to me.
Marriage used to be a commitment between two people: an expression of love and fidelity to the other as well as an acknowledgement of their future potential as parents to a new generation. That flies out the window when sex becomes nothing more than a recreational act between consenting adults.
"It all depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is".
There is reality, and then there is the affectations we choose to apply to it. Or to quote William Shakespeare thus "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
Word games are for people who wish to disguise or hide the truth of things. Changing the word isn't going to change the thing. A = A.
I think you mistake my point with any agreement I have with it. Allow me to clarify: just because I pointed out that the government has an interest in something does not mean I sympathize with their control over such.
As to the rest of your comment, I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Are you advocating for population controls?
What does the last part of that sentence, " I don't care what people do with themselves or other consenting people, so long as they keep it out of my universe...." mean to you?
How are 'they' responsible for 'keeping something out of YOUR universe'?
What is the extent of your universe? (Your nose or your toes, whichever sticks out the furthest"?
Or does it include movies that you can choose to not see and TV programs or channels that you aren't (yet) forced to watch?
... and if you look at what we seem to have today, we could easily agree that we already DO HAVE the 'natural social form' you described... tribes rules by oligarchy.
How are the political, legal and social structures today different from that?
no, "morally" was then, and is now, still rooted in religion and cultural definitions and mores. There is NO 'absolute definition' for it, no matter how hard you believe there is. Whatever....
Oh, baloney on all examples. This "modern" will celebrate his 69th birthday on 11/22 this year. Piffle. "Defective" is only in the mind of the Person who's using the label.
Marriage is the social custom and rituals surrounding the natural mating habits of homo sapiens. They are not a matter of simple contract, but of obeying the most powerful of instincts.
It is being discovered, and ignored by the social engineers, the advantages of the traditional family (not merely the "nuclear family"... something more along the lines of The Waltons, if you can remember it, is most suited to our tribal instincts), including prosperity.
Reality is not determined by popular opinion. Things do indeed change. Take, for example, the change from the Roman era to say... the dark ages. Take, for example, the change from pre-WW I Germany to mid-WW II Germany. Take, for example, the change from Tsarist Russia to the Soviet Union of the Cold War.
That's the difference between conservatives and liberals, libertarians, and even objectivists. Why some liberals and libertarians believe all change is good, some objectivsits just don't give a... crap. Let it change, so long as individuals are individualing as much as they are capable of individualing; everything happens in a vacuum.
Conservatives, on the other hand, prefer productive change; they prefer analyzing the past for what worked and what didn't rather than assuming modern generations are wiser than previous ones.
Take, for example, the cultural issue of homosexuality. I've seen it argued that Rome accepted homosexuality, as did the Greeks.
This is like suggesting that you and I accept slavery.
During its republican phase, Rome was quite prudish in many ways. Even Julius Caesar criticized the Gauls for practicing homosexuality.
Most are fond of treating Rome as a static monolith, never changing from day one until its demise. Which is a disaster for modern generations, who could see the devolution of Rome, if they would study Rome as it was, and thereby extrapolate our own decline.
As for the Greeks, in some times and places in Greek history, homosexuality was not only accepted, but embraced... in a highly structured and restricted way. Men were expected to give it up, if they practiced it at all, when they reached maturity. Then again, Greeks are also known for their fondness for sheep...
Any marriage ritual or institution that deviates from the instincts surrounding the creation, nurturing and survival of young is destructive of society, to one degree or another.
Thank you, I'm really not gay by todays definition, and in fact I never was. I am very happy, happy I worked hard and saved all my life. It makes me enjoy it even more today. Your last sentence gave me my laugh for the day. I think I'll even go outside today and maybe even do something constructive. Thank you!!!
H, I see that our natural social form is the extended family, ruled by no one, defended by mercenaries on a verbal contract basis, and by ourselves -- more like Rand saw, I believe -- and we might want to adhere to it. -- j
If enough people agree about 'legally binding contracts' for whatever it's called, maybe 'bound partners' might work, or 'bonded.' ? :)
Some sci-fi stories just use the term "marriage contract," and it's a contract with any legal, financial, inheritance, etc., clauses in it that the (two or more) signing parties agree to before autographing it on the bottom line.. :)
Yep, 'gay' got 'repurposed,' leading to cartoons around holiday season showing transvestites "donning now our gay apparel"... and so on. And if 'lesbian' means female-female relationship, what do the words 'gay' and 'homosexual' mean? How do they actually differentiate male-male from female-female, if at all? So what might the male-male 'equivalent' of 'lesbian' be, and why doesn't such a word come to mind easily? :)
I don't care if you were or are 'gay,' but if you're not or were not 'happy,' you have my sympathy. :)
One logical fallacy is your use of the phrase "from what it really is..." above... Really Is??? Thank you, oh, judge, jury and executioner...
What 'marriage really is' is nothing but a social agreement on such a 'definition,' and as many of US have noticed, those 'definitions' can and do change over time...
Reread 'Wifezilla's" history lesson, above...
"Posted by Wifezilla 1 day, 5 hours ago If you want a good laugh about the entire institution of marriage, read "Legends, Lies and Cherished Myths of World History" some time. ..."
As for your question about insurance companies and licenses, in most states, to register an auto you do need to show a driver's license, right? and the insurance company won't insure an unregistered vehicle for use on public roads, right? So, if the problem is liability, why shouldn't the 'contract' be between me and the insurance company, and if they are happy with my driver training or driving history, they give me insurance... and if i'm stopped by the police, they ask for "insurance affidavit, please..." which subsumes or comprises a license AND registration?
Just pondering...
Oh, and as for Concealed Carry, if that nagging Amendment Debate (#2, right,) ever gets settled, CC laws across the country might get 'mooted,' too!
Notice how so many 'popular states' constitutional amendments' on gay marriage seem to be being "successfully challenged" and/or overturned recently? See a trend there?
See any similarities? Looks like 'gay marriage bans' are fast becoming "pretend," too.
yes, welfare reverses slavery so that the "haves" are enslaved to the "have nots" financially -- thus the extraordinary irony with BHO enhancing this reverse slavery. -- j
Previous comments... You are currently on page 3.
Without cultural definitions and mores... there is no culture.
Again, something objectivists seem perfectly okay with.
Objectivists aren't anarchists, don't think I'm saying that. Objectivists are too anti-social to be anarchist.
It's the idea that "ooh, I got more tech than they had a billion years ago, so I'm smarterer!"
Regarding defective... let GM try to use that argument.
"Oh, your car is only defective in the mind of the person using the label".
Obviously your inability to do so represents restriction is a restriction on individual rights, period.
Or it could simply have something to do with the nature of homo sapiens.
It is against the law to kill someone outside of self-defense. This is a restriction on individual liberty, since it restricts one from enjoying eliminating so many who so badly need to be eliminated. Murder laws exist for the benefit of the society, not the benefit of the individual. It is up to the individual to defend himself; hence the 2nd Amendment protections.
So, we've established that your god is "individual rights", reality be damned.
"Calling a tail a leg doesn't make the name fit"
- Robert A. Heinlein
There is no restriction on marriage based on race, creed or sexual orientation... it is what it is, and anything outside of that is not. Homosexuals can marry, provided they meet the same requirements as anyone else, the same requirements *I* have to meet: finding a willing member of the opposite sex.
I want to marry a giraffe. Saying that I cannot do so is a restriction on my individual rights. Period. But, if I am allowed to marry a giraffe, then "marriage" has been redefined to accommodate me, and quickly becomes meaningless. Which is what you want.
I drive a homophone to work, but I drive a paragraph home from work. I do these things because we have decided that words don't mean anything, that there is no objective reality, and everything is based on making people with certain afflictions feel not-bad.
I have decided to redefine "minivan" as "homophone", but only after 10pm. After 7am, "minivan" is redefined again as "paragraph". Why? Because words don't have to mean anything; because we don't have to have any concrete definitions, and because what I want supersedes the reality around me... if I'm like you.
Male and female humans mate. For life, in the wild, generally speaking. Marriage is the ritualization of this instinctive behavior. The ritualization has nothing to do with individualism, but about tribalism. Marriage, oddly enough, is a group thing, not an individual thing. It is a part of the panoply of ritual and semi-ritual activities that lubricate social interactions. For one thing it establishes within the tribe, "this is my woman; no other man may enjoy her". What you would call, "property rights". This isn't slavery, because he belongs to her, as well; you might say they trade value for value.
Note; it's not just that she may not screw around on him; no other man may enjoy her, as I said, making it a social contract on the tribe, not just between the two individuals.
This is not necessary among sexual deviants, since they don't mate. What they do may be fun, may be emotion-filled, but it's... deviant. It serves no purpose in the evolution and survival of the species, which, like it or not, tops individual liberty.
Society can survive those able to marry but unable to produce offspring getting married. But it can't long survive marriage being defined into meaninglessness.
Any restrictions on marriage based on race, creed, sexual orientation is a restriction on individual rights. Period.
Marriage was first and foremost the license for people to have sexual relations in the first place. That tends to get forgotten in all the rush. Children are a logical by-product, but (as you pointed out) are not a guaranteed result. My sister-in-law is a personal reminder of that to me.
Marriage used to be a commitment between two people: an expression of love and fidelity to the other as well as an acknowledgement of their future potential as parents to a new generation. That flies out the window when sex becomes nothing more than a recreational act between consenting adults.
There is reality, and then there is the affectations we choose to apply to it. Or to quote William Shakespeare thus "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
Word games are for people who wish to disguise or hide the truth of things. Changing the word isn't going to change the thing. A = A.
As to the rest of your comment, I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Are you advocating for population controls?
I don't care what people do with themselves or other consenting people, so long as they keep it out of my universe...." mean to you?
How are 'they' responsible for 'keeping something out of YOUR universe'?
What is the extent of your universe? (Your nose or your toes, whichever sticks out the furthest"?
Or does it include movies that you can choose to not see and TV programs or channels that you aren't (yet) forced to watch?
Just clarifyin'...
What if each State established its own 'draft age' for military duty?
And particularly for taxation laws' effects on marrieds versus unmarrieds (by whatever definition)?
Yep, looks like all of the above just might turn out to be a Constitutional (at the National Level) issue of Federal versus States' "rights." !
Hm!
How are the political, legal and social structures today different from that?
:)
Whatever....
Piffle.
"Defective" is only in the mind of the Person who's using the label.
Enjoy your life. I'm enjoying mine.
Cheers!
It is being discovered, and ignored by the social engineers, the advantages of the traditional family (not merely the "nuclear family"... something more along the lines of The Waltons, if you can remember it, is most suited to our tribal instincts), including prosperity.
Reality is not determined by popular opinion. Things do indeed change. Take, for example, the change from the Roman era to say... the dark ages. Take, for example, the change from pre-WW I Germany to mid-WW II Germany.
Take, for example, the change from Tsarist Russia to the Soviet Union of the Cold War.
That's the difference between conservatives and liberals, libertarians, and even objectivists. Why some liberals and libertarians believe all change is good, some objectivsits just don't give a... crap. Let it change, so long as individuals are individualing as much as they are capable of individualing; everything happens in a vacuum.
Conservatives, on the other hand, prefer productive change; they prefer analyzing the past for what worked and what didn't rather than assuming modern generations are wiser than previous ones.
Take, for example, the cultural issue of homosexuality. I've seen it argued that Rome accepted homosexuality, as did the Greeks.
This is like suggesting that you and I accept slavery.
During its republican phase, Rome was quite prudish in many ways. Even Julius Caesar criticized the Gauls for practicing homosexuality.
Most are fond of treating Rome as a static monolith, never changing from day one until its demise. Which is a disaster for modern generations, who could see the devolution of Rome, if they would study Rome as it was, and thereby extrapolate our own decline.
As for the Greeks, in some times and places in Greek history, homosexuality was not only accepted, but embraced... in a highly structured and restricted way. Men were expected to give it up, if they practiced it at all, when they reached maturity.
Then again, Greeks are also known for their fondness for sheep...
Any marriage ritual or institution that deviates from the instincts surrounding the creation, nurturing and survival of young is destructive of society, to one degree or another.
family, ruled by no one, defended by mercenaries
on a verbal contract basis, and by ourselves -- more
like Rand saw, I believe -- and we might want to
adhere to it. -- j
Some sci-fi stories just use the term "marriage contract," and it's a contract with any legal, financial, inheritance, etc., clauses in it that the (two or more) signing parties agree to before autographing it on the bottom line.. :)
Yep, 'gay' got 'repurposed,' leading to cartoons around holiday season showing transvestites "donning now our gay apparel"... and so on. And if 'lesbian' means female-female relationship, what do the words 'gay' and 'homosexual' mean? How do they actually differentiate male-male from female-female, if at all? So what might the male-male 'equivalent' of 'lesbian' be, and why doesn't such a word come to mind easily? :)
I don't care if you were or are 'gay,' but if you're not or were not 'happy,' you have my sympathy.
:)
What 'marriage really is' is nothing but a social agreement on such a 'definition,' and as many of US have noticed, those 'definitions' can and do change over time...
Reread 'Wifezilla's" history lesson, above...
"Posted by Wifezilla 1 day, 5 hours ago
If you want a good laugh about the entire institution of marriage, read "Legends, Lies and Cherished Myths of World History" some time. ..."
As for your question about insurance companies and licenses, in most states, to register an auto you do need to show a driver's license, right? and the insurance company won't insure an unregistered vehicle for use on public roads, right? So, if the problem is liability, why shouldn't the 'contract' be between me and the insurance company, and if they are happy with my driver training or driving history, they give me insurance... and if i'm stopped by the police, they ask for "insurance affidavit, please..." which subsumes or comprises a license AND registration?
Just pondering...
Oh, and as for Concealed Carry, if that nagging Amendment Debate (#2, right,) ever gets settled, CC laws across the country might get 'mooted,' too!
Notice how so many 'popular states' constitutional amendments' on gay marriage seem to be being "successfully challenged" and/or overturned recently? See a trend there?
See any similarities? Looks like 'gay marriage bans' are fast becoming "pretend," too.
Things change.
are enslaved to the "have nots" financially -- thus
the extraordinary irony with BHO enhancing this
reverse slavery. -- j
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