Rational Self-Interest vs. Self-Serving

Posted by khalling 12 years, 1 month ago to Philosophy
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I am having a little debate with an Objectivist, about this sentence in our book.

"He was being protected by the immoral, self-serving culture of Washington DC. Hank’s face flushed with anger.”

Do you see a problem with using "self-serving" next to "immoral" ? If so, what other word(s) might you use in place of "self-serving."

We were attempting to get across the 'we'll save our own tribe' culture of government. it's not crony-because we want to just focus on from within the government. We saw it last week, with many republicans like Sen. Rubio, backing McConnell's actions. Or I wonder how many park rangers relished the high handed tactics of keeping citizens from using their own property, etc.
I would appreciate your thoughts on this.



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  • Posted by $ Hiraghm 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    There are, of course, times when lying is perfectly rational. In war, for example.

    One of the things that makes me wary of objectivism (and I've expressed this before) is that like all utopian philosophies such as socialism, to work it relies on everybody behaving in certain ways and having certain values in common.

    Back to my point... everybody lies. Everybody.

    How do I know everybody lies? Because the suicide rate is so low. I've never met a person yet who is willing to see him/herself as s/he truly is.

    Take a person who tries to view himself objectively, who does not rationalize his past transgressions to himself to one degree or another... and I'll show you a near-psychotic or potential suicide. Or both. I'll also show you a perpetual failure.

    Even Hank Rearden lied to himself to justify his adultery to himself.

    Funny that I'm posting this message now.
    On tv there's a movie called The Dilemma, where Vince Vaughn sees his best friend's wife kissing another man, but for his best friend's sake decides he has to keep it secret from him.


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  • Posted by $ Hiraghm 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Not at the point he began banging Dagny she wasn't intentionally trying to undermine him.

    There's also the moral contract; what words were in their marriage vows? "in sickness and in health, for richer for poorer, for better for worse, cleave only unto..."?

    Do two wrongs, in fact, make a right?
    In terms of integrity, if you break faith with me, am I still principled, solid, unwavering by breaking faith with you?

    I'm not saying he shouldn't have gotten involved with Dagny; I'm saying, being the man he was supposed to be, he would have gotten the divorce far, far sooner, in my opinion.
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  • Posted by $ Hiraghm 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    please don't misunderstand. I'm not asking why integrity is important because I think it's not important.

    I sensed in the conversation some "givens" that I felt should be explored rather than assumed.

    I didn't have the right or wrong answer; I just believed there was one.
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  • Posted by $ Mimi 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Of course. Who else would have a word for self-serving then a man who makes a living as a satirist of our world, using the greedy inhabitants of a disc-shaped world sitting on the back of four elephants who stand on the back of a giant sea turtle floating through space? This is a no-brainer.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Integrity is about being honest about who you are and not letting anyone else define you, or coerce you. Being principled and solid....unwavering. Many of us fail at this until we realize that sometimes standing up for your beliefs DOES cost you in one area or another. Relationships, money, jobs, friends.... Those who have fought for the principle of freedom have paid with their LIVES!
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  • Posted by Rozar 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    You are also infringing on other's rights to use their best judgment by being fraudulent. Just because it doesn't help you doesn't mean it's immoral.

    Your question relates to why is not using force against another human important if it doesn't help your happiness.
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  • Posted by 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    the legal contract for marriage is not the moral commitment. Lillian Rearden broke the moral contract long before Hank and Dagny hooked up. She undermined him at every turn and was bent on destroying him. Hank no longer has to hold up his side of the contract. It is a matter of self defense.
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  • Posted by Rozar 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    Integrity is doing what you said you were going to do. If you're asking why lying isn't rational there are arguments on the objective standards blog but one reason is you are releasing control of your life to others. By lying you have to continue to lie to sustain the first one and so on until it's out of your control. Essentially you're giving up the right to be who you really are more and more until you're found out and punished per the terms of whatever contract you breached.
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  • Posted by $ Hiraghm 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    There's a difference; he willingly entered into a contract with his wife; he did not willingly agree to the regulations constantly being passed.

    One might argue that his wife broke the contract (how?), but the resolution for someone with integrity is divorce *before* screwing Dagny.

    And now I am asking; why should integrity be important if it doesn't get you what you want? If it actually costs you in terms of money, achievement and/or happiness?
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  • Posted by 12 years, 1 month ago in reply to this comment.
    "By your comment you would say shrugging was playing dirty too... they broke the laws by leaving their businesses behind. (Playing 'dirty' to save yourself, while not taking from others, is different than politicians playing dirty to steal your wealth.)"
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