there is a story about a muskrat in my book. which is now ready....to start the slog of submitting. sigh

Roasted rabbit is yummy. Haven't had it in soup before.

even if I buy your argument, then how the pregnancy comes about matters. rape, incest? ladies, prepare accordingly

OK, rabbit soup :)

I what is "the essential"?

Participating in sex has consequences. Saying someone must accept them is not demanding a sacrifice. On the contrary, it is demanding she accept reality and make her choices accordingly.

That example intentionally ignores the essential of the parent-child relationship.

The essential of a human is his/her rational consciousness.

Just so we are all clear, Ayn Rand was pro-choice.

Here is an actual website (via The Ayn Rand Lexicon) that actually shares her written opinions about her support of abortion rights and disdain for 'pro-life' extremists.

Here's a few teasers:

"An embryo has no rights"
"A child cannot attain any rights until it is born"
"Abortion is a moral right"
"Who can conceivably have the right to dictate to her what disposition she is to make of the functions of her own body?"
"A proper, philosophically valid definition of man as “a rational animal,” would not permit anyone to ascribe the status of “person” to a few human cells."

All citations and further readings are on the following site:
http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/aborti...

not surprised a bit.

Very interesting...

Awww. There are some really big snapping turtles in my woods....

I will make you some muskrat soup..it's an east coast thing :)

So here's a monkey wrench: I am adopted. I came home from the hospital at 5 days old, (no drive by deliveries in 1967), with my parents, as in they who adopted me.

The birth mother was a college student, as was the father. It was a 50/50 chance I could have never been born, but I would not know it if I hadn't been. As a mother, I CANNOT IMAGINE what agony she went through to give up her baby. That very thought had crossed my mind after each of my own children were born. They are also my only known blood relatives. I also miscarried before I had had a full term pregnancy with my first born, my son.

I could not consider having an abortion after having experienced that unless my own life was in peril. I still would not ever presume to tell anyone else they can't have that choice for themselves. I am not them, I don't know their circumstances, and it would be the highest form of egotism to think I had that right.

notice that part where she doesn't want to legislate anything about it
it wasn't luck. it was fate

Darn tootin you're lucky!

That is a story with a happy ending. and if there had been challenges I have no doubt you would have persevered and your child would have a good life. and Personally, I do not understand why a doctor would feel the need to advise abortion unless the mother's life was in danger. then it seems appropriate, so the mother can assess risk to her own life. seems your doctors should have just stuck to the facts so you could prepare if your baby was born with a disease.

I disagree. If conception is the point of human being then any tissue taken from your body and cloned so all your cells are potential life. I go back to this point:
a need does not create a right. to exist does not mean claim against the rest of the world.
I do believe it's in my rational self interest to nurture and raise my fetuses, babies, and children. and I would appeal to those considering abortion that it's in their rational self interest to carry the fetus to term.

This is an issue I had decided to stay out of, but after sleeping on it, I have to voice my opinion. Personally, I have made my own choice in this area. When I was 5 months pregnant, I had a test to check my CHILD for certain diseases and it came back a few days later stating that he had spina bifida, doctors advice was abortion. I left his office and walked for miles. Decided I would have my child and do whatever needed to be done to care for him. Do you know 4 months later, he was born and did NOT have this disease.

My point is, I made MY decision and I don't know nor care, what decisions other people make in this area.

Your personal judgement can be objective or subjective. in this case, the argument started with the conclusion that abortion is murder. as Peikoff pointed out, a fetus is not a person. therefore, cutting off support is not killing. that's the philosophy. now to govt.
on one hand, we are discussing govt control in talk of repealing RoevWade.. on the other hand, in this day and age, where most in our country are relatively well off, and there are many couples who can't have children and want them, it makes sense to have a strong legal structure to allow mother to get paid for her risk and effort to give birth. there are a million circumstances that would be wise for our laws to clarify. ie. see the sperm donor post. Govt should provide a clear path for encouraging adoptions. to steal someone else's word, right now it's mishmashy.