Galt's Gulch

(20) China 'willfully inflicted coronavirus upon the world'

Posted by $ nickursis 4 years, 1 month ago to Government
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Well, this is interesting...bio warfare? Nice condemnation of communism...

SOURCE URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Kkw39g1pCQ

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  • Posted by exceller 4 years, 1 month ago
    https://www.theepochtimes.com/ccp-is-...

    "It was under strict control. Two of my sisters are in Wuhan. They can’t go in or out. They have been locked in with door panels and fences. Many elderly were starved to death. Many died of starvation. This data will not be officially recognized.

    No one believes in the official data, whether you are associated with the government or not."
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    • Posted by term2 4 years, 1 month ago
      China has taken a big PR hit over this, fotunately. I think as Americans we should slowly but with deliberate speed buy less from china, while keeping quiet about our plans.
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    • Posted by $ nickursis 4 years, 1 month ago
      Who/what does this sound like? Ans: Nazi. There is a lot of connections to them. I believe we will find ultimately all the evil groups we have seen, are just a wallpaper over the basic deep state group.
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      • Posted by $ allosaur 4 years, 1 month ago
        Me dino knows that Deep State actors (certain politicians with cohort big business fat cats) got oh so fantatically rich selling out America and our jobs overseas and almost all of our pharmaceutical industry specifically to China, but now it is high time to continue with big time taking it all back. America first! MAGA baby! MAGA!
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  • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
    There is no evidence that "China willfully inflicted coronavirus upon the world". They were irresponsible and reckless, and tried to hide it to the point of persecuting their own doctors, but neither the posted discussion nor anything else has provided evidence that they willfully attacked the rest of the world with the virus. It would not be surprising if they had, but "never automatically ascribe to conspiracy what is easily explained by incompetence." Dictatorship is incompetent by its evil nature.
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    • Posted by $ Thoritsu 4 years, 1 month ago
      What China did was not different than a person with AIDS having unprotected sex with someone else. Ignorant or not, it is selfish and dangerous, compelling another to live with the potential consequences, without their consent.

      China used force, whether or not they understood the consequences.
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      • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
        Reckless irresponsibility leading to mass death is not selfish.
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        • Posted by $ Thoritsu 4 years, 1 month ago
          Selfish depends on the motive for the act. The acts were irresponsibility and hiding the event. Both harmed others. The motives were stupidity and control.

          Hiding the event to maintain control and harming others is selfish. Sorry if that doesn't fit your preconceived answer.
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          • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
            That is the opposite of any rational concept of self interest and contrary to everything Ayn Rand wrote and explained for a rational morality. "Selfish" does not mean a "motive" for dishonestly "hiding" to "maintain control and harming others". A snide "sorry" sneering at an alleged "preconceived answer" does not save it.
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            • Posted by $ Thoritsu 4 years, 1 month ago
              While it is just lovely that Ayn pointed out that individually being "selfish" to the exclusions of other is self defeating. We all here would agree.

              It is quite another thing to take this argument to the scale of governments. If a government can develop adequate resources to take economic and military leadership, there nothing (except massive bloody revolution) to stop it.

              The system Ayn describes in a free society among people and companies moderates itself. The inter political system of the world has very limited forms of moderation, and regimes, such as the one Ayn fled, exist for a long time with their "selfishness" un or weakly moderated by external influences.

              You will have to come up with a better argument against this use of the word "selfish", than that Ayn used it in a positive manner. Unchecked with feedback it can quite obviously be negative, just as I described above.
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              • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
                Ayn Rand did not say that "individually being 'selfish' to the exclusions of other is self defeating".

                She did not speak in terms of a society "moderating itself" and "unchecked feedback", which is incoherent, nor was the Soviet Union that she escaped from "selfish". It was based on sacrifice of the individual to the collective, which is why she left. So is Chinese communism. China is not "selfish", and in particular what it has done about this virus is not "selfish", it is destructive.

                A proper morality is based on the nature of the individual, not avoiding "unchecked feedback". A proper morality in turn implies what is morally proper for choices made by individuals in a social context, which in turn implies the proper nature of government as protecting the rights of the individual. None of this is based on a notion of self "moderation" of collectives like "societies".

                No "better argument" is required than Ayn Rand's proper concept of 'selfish' in ethics. The 'Don't be "selfish"' bromide is not a standard for rejecting China's actions. "Selfish" does not mean a "motive" for dishonestly "hiding" to "maintain control and harming others".
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              • Posted by $ nickursis 4 years, 1 month ago
                Thank you, Thor, for a ray of reason here....
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                • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
                  It is not a "ray of reason". It is incoherent and shows no understanding of Ayn Rand.
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                    Posted by $ Thoritsu 4 years, 1 month ago
                    Yes, incoherent, sure ...

                    You go right on being "right", little man, and lead your band of two people to protest the next tax increase and elimination of the 2nd Amendment, assuming you can still get out and carry a sign.

                    The rest of us will be successfully guiding others from socialism and government force, while you live in your little "right' world existing completely within your head,
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    • Posted by $ nickursis 4 years, 1 month ago
      Are you aware that had they immediately imposed a quarantine withing China when the Eye doctor described the symptoms and was then arrested for it, 99% probability of it staying in country? Instead, they arrested him for "spreading lies", and then allowed a huge festival to occur in Wuhan, where upon thousands spread out to China and beyond? While you may ascribe it to incompetency, they can constitute that as deliberate, making it the equivalent to an act of war. At some point we need to draw a line between excusable stupidity (which is an oxymoron) and malicious intent. I am sure we will get a breakdown on the things origins, but don't you see it suspicious several of the "big" virus's appear from China. and are always ascribed to some archaic "meat market"?
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      • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
        A dictatorship is more than just stupid; it is evil and it does what it does by intent along with accompanying incompetence. It doesn't follow that they deliberately do by intent whatever you think up, including spreading viruses. That kind of subjectivist thinking leads to conspiracy mongering spreading rumors as fact.
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        • Posted by term2 4 years, 1 month ago
          They do seem to be in the business of coming up with these new viruses. One has to wonder "what for ? "
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          • Posted by Dobrien 4 years, 1 month ago
            https://youtu.be/IRJpP83MqNs
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            • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
              "This corona virus thing" is "part" of a "great big marketing firm for globalism"? A "World Bank" conspiracy somehow made a pandemic mysteriously "fortuitous" because of funding to combat spread of disease?" "Voila!"? A half hour of streaming batty conspiracies is not a credible source.
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              • Posted by Dobrien 4 years, 1 month ago
                Why bother your babbling replies are empty.
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                • Posted by $ nickursis 4 years, 1 month ago
                  ewv seems to have missed on all the disparate pieces of data that, when collated, add up to something having been going on for hundreds of years, with a very specific goal of a single world government led by a small group of "elites" (self appointed, through power and money). He also does not understand the petrodollar, or why it is nothing more than fiat, nor seems to have the inquisitiveness to ask how we got there. In fact, a friend of mine was showing me two very signifigant Supreme Court rulings, one from 1815, one from 1892, that basically tell us the Fed is illegal, and that there is no real money but a U.S. Government Note. The Fact FDR stuck a "legal for all debts, public or private" lends 0 credibility to Fed notes, they are not government issued. I believe this will be one of the tools Trump will throw on the table soon when the Fed is vaporized, after we get done with a 2 trillion dollar spending spree with money that does not exist. No wonder he is not worried about the debt, since many countries are also in the same boat. The financial reset will happen, and they have the tools to do it, bringing forth Q's statement "Gold will destroy the fed"....
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        • Posted by Dobrien 4 years, 1 month ago
          No , as you say one must not deviate from the main stream narrative. Just swallow what these lying fake media and WHO puppets tell you.
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          • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
            The requirement for evidence in accordance with logic is not a refusal to "deviate" from "swallowing" "lying fake media and WHO puppets" in a "main stream narrative".

            Logic has been known to reject "narratives", including conspiracy theories from subjective speculation.
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  • Posted by $ Stormi 4 years, 1 month ago
    WHO is nothing more than an arm of the socialist UN. China was careless or calulating, but they caused it, and it is worth noting, Russia has only about 17 cases of the virus. Were thye warned to close their border with China even before Tump did no? Maybe this was a test run, or maybe it just turned out that way, but China is known for human abuse issues and does not follow rules of other countries about huanity.
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  • Posted by term2 4 years, 1 month ago
    I do think that they invented this virus in their Wuhan lab. We will probably never have proof, but I am willing to conclude this is the case and move on from there.

    I tend to think it was a colossal screwup that released the virus into china itself. I would be willing to agree that it was a test to see how things would go in the rest of the world, but it infected and killed too many chinese for that. Why not release it somewhere else if it was a test.

    Communism produces a lot of government f&*kuups like Chernobyl, and I could see someone left a door open or something like that, and it got out.

    I dont think anyone should mess with these viruses and come up with new strains. Theres no valid reason for doing this, at least IMHO
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    • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
      How do you conclude that with no proof and an acknowledgement that you will probably never have proof? Is there no such thing as a naturally evolving virus? Do they all require an evil creator to account for them under the latest theory of Virus Creationism?
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      • Posted by term2 4 years, 1 month ago
        In the absence of conclusive proof, one can look to circumstantial observations:
        1). There seems to be quite a number of “new” viruses that seem to originate in China
        2) there is an experimental virus lab close to Wuhan
        3) the Chinese response to the outbreak involved a lot of secrecy and hiding
        4) the Chinese seemed to know a lot about the dna of this virus right away
        5) the Chinese are blaming the USA for the virus
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        • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
          None of that is evidence that they manufactured the virus. New viruses periodically occur naturally and are a constant threat. Corona virus is a kind of virus that was already known; this one is a new instance. The Chinese are secretive and hide all kinds of things by nature and blame the US for anything they can. All you can say is that they have the capacity for manufacturing germ warfare and as a dictatorship lack the scruples not to.

          It makes sense to wonder if they did it, but not to "conclude" that they did it, let alone while believing you will never be able to prove it.

          Those closer to the situation with more knowledge can try to investigate but have so far ruled it out. Whether or not you believe them depends on how much you know about them, etc.
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          • Posted by term2 4 years, 1 month ago
            Its so hard to really know about things like this. However, we all have to go through life dealing with them without having absolute knowledge. We have to accumulate the knowledge that is available to us, and go with that. If we are wrong, we can always change our position.
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            • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
              Accumulating knowledge that you don't have is not grounds for making a conclusion without proof. When you don't know you don't know. Reaching unsubstantiated conclusions knowing you can't prove them with a flippant "we can always change it" is Pragmatism, not logic.
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              • Posted by term2 4 years, 1 month ago
                I can see that you would hardly ever conclude anything in the world as it is now. Actual evidence is about as plentiful as hens teeth, particularly when it involves liberals. In order to function in the world of today in any reasonable time, one has to make decisions based on what you can figure out. No one is saying that this approach would result in the absolutely correct decision if all the facts were known. But when they arent known, but a decision is required NOW...
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          • Posted by $ nickursis 4 years, 1 month ago
            Try this on, I would point you to the other sources tha have traced it back to a gorl who was delivering live virus to the Virus facility, but you would not give it any credit. However, being China, "real facts" are almost impossible to come by. So, we then have to rely on other data like:
            1. no, or late reports.
            2. False numbers.
            3. Little to no communications with outside agencies to get help.
            4. Valueing the Party's "face" more that humn lives.
            5. Numerous anecdotal statements that they STILL have a problem,. they are just locking people in their buildings to die, a death unreported is a death that did not happen.
            Why have a Level 4 facility in a city? What is it's purpose? This in a country that will militarize a roll of toilet paper, and who has already come out to threaten us with death in "the sea of coronavirus"?

            https://www.theepochtimes.com/first-c...
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            • Posted by Lucky 4 years, 1 month ago
              I accept/agree with the propositions 1 to 5.
              But, nothing supports the deliberate release story suggest in the first sentence.
              In the last sentence you suggest believing their statement A but not their statement B. There are other options.

              This is not an aside-
              I have just finished reading 'One Shot' by Lee Child. A man is arrested for a gun slaying, the evidence is impeccable / overwhelming. Bu the story unfolds to show another interpretation without denying any of the evidence.
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              • Posted by $ nickursis 4 years, 1 month ago
                Lucky, 1 to 5 was the "unrelated facts" that add up to a deliberate effort to obfuscate the issue, which allowed it to escalae out of control of all the countries as we now see. Such behavhior is criminal in most places, especially when it results in deaths. The 1st sentence is related to one site that tracked the "patient 0" being a grl who was delivering a group of vials to the lab, that somehow let it out, and she is dead, of course. Based on ewvs total disdane for any data not vetted by a major news outlet, I didn't want to take it any further, but the manner in which her name was scratched, her existence erased, but numerous people that knew her statements, it matches their modus operandi.
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                • Posted by Lucky 4 years, 1 month ago
                  Thanks for elaboration.
                  About that gang- I can believe (not quite equal to accept) those horror stories. The delivery girl story- reported where, Washington Post or Washington Times?

                  Our ewv has stricter standards than me for evidence and inference, eg. if it is in the Post or in the Times, affects my thinking.

                  Even so, someone said on here weeks ago- in the face of such events in human affairs rather than conspiracy it is usually more reliable to blame a cock-up.

                  I have a higher regard for the Xi Jinping rationality (for narrow minded self-interest) than for any ethical system. Now this event is not and could not be favorable for China, for the leadership, for the Chinese people. nor for most anyone else. So, I doubt it was deliberate, rather an error. Monumental errors are a characteristic of dictatorships.

                  nick.. reading your post again-
                  1 to 5 was the "unrelated facts" that add up to a deliberate effort to obfuscate the issue, which allowed it to escalate out of control
                  Exactly- errors, accidents, escalation, disaster, obfuscation.
                  Very strong evidence of criminality - yes, I'd say a hanging offense in China, but weak evidence that it was planned.
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                  • Posted by $ nickursis 4 years, 1 month ago
                    Lucky,

                    Look at this, it is a group who calls themselves Edge of Wonder, who refer to a Chinese man who is reporting from in China and uses some neat workarounds to get around China censors. About 3:00 in till 4:30. They say the real Patient 0 was a girl named Huang Yenling who supposedly delivered 4 vials to the lab and was never seen again. Of course, that would have, had it been reported by lamestream media, connected the lab that is known to be doing the crazy crap, with the current issue, and China is not going to allow that.

                    https://youtu.be/NVzne_ZQ0Vo
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                    • Posted by Lucky 4 years, 1 month ago
                      I think this is the mainstream source mentioned.
                      website-
                      https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6...
                      headline-
                      China 'willfully inflicted coronavirus upon the world'

                      The headline is not supported by the story.
                      What I get out of it is-
                      " a Chinese bio-lab lost control of some weapons-grade virus and covered it up like Chernobyl".
                      Efforts on covering-up took away resources from managing the accident. Sufficient evidence for hanging or shooting culprits, no need to exaggerate.
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                      • Posted by $ nickursis 4 years, 1 month ago
                        BTW Lucky, consider this "conspiracy theory": In New York, Friday Oct 19, 2019, they conducted an excercise "Event 201 simulates an outbreak of a novel zoonotic coronavirus transmitted from bats to pigs to people that eventually becomes efficiently transmissible from person to person, leading to a severe pandemic. The pathogen and the disease it causes are modeled largely on SARS, but it is more transmissible in the community setting by people with mild symptoms." Sound familiar?

                        http://www.centerforhealthsecurity.or...

                        I know that just having a huge "exercise" that duplicates exactly, what transpires immediately after said "exercise" is totally insane conspiracy theory stuff....but....you know.....
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            • Posted by ewv 4 years, 1 month ago
              When you don't have "real facts" you don't know. Ignoring the many different possibilities is not evidence for a conspiracy theory.
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              • Posted by $ nickursis 4 years, 1 month ago
                Unfortunately, your logic was the same logic that led to Pearl Harbor, despite overwhelming evidence of it coming. Ignoring logical connections that rationally describe a particular event (yes, even "conspiracies") is as valid as saying "it doesn't exist". Based on your logic, Flat Earthers are correct because we cannot prove to everyone the Earth is round by showing it to them realtime....
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  • Posted by Owlsrayne 4 years, 1 month ago
    I don't trust China at all. I hope that much our industry that is doing business in China get out. This country must become self sufficient. Reparations should be made by China even is it wrecks their economy, the military is running a good portion of it.
    Just got a nwes update on my cell say the US Senate failed again in the aid legislation. Total idiocy in that part of our gov't. Both sides have gone punch drunk with a trillion dollars.
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    • Posted by lrshultis 4 years, 1 month ago
      Why lower the standard of living of USA citizens by increasing prices so that excess money cannot be spent for other things? Bringing industries back so that higher costs of production take place will keep some businesses from even starting up due to having to pay higher labor costs to some businesses. Some may believe that just increasing the money supply will get around that, but that inflation will only hurt the consumer's standard of living.
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    • Posted by term2 4 years, 1 month ago
      Our government is getting drunk with power made possible by the virus outbreak. Not that many people actually die, and destroying the economy here isnt going to cut the eventual death toll at all. But our government could destroy the dollar once and for all.....along with our economy
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      • Posted by ohiocrossroads 4 years, 1 month ago
        Yes, I have marvelled at that, too. I would be more worried about the end of freedom in America if it were the Dimocrats behind the effort. But since it is Trump, I will trust him for the 15 day "social distancing" period, then maybe a week after to see if the spread of the disease has been slowed. If the controls aren't lifted after that, I'll start to worry.
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        • Posted by term2 4 years, 1 month ago
          I think trump is realizing that the dems only want to destroy the economy so they get stupid Biden as president. Not trump realizes that this bailout bill may never actually get passed, and its time to figure out how to get the economy back without the dems.
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  • Posted by GaryL 4 years, 1 month ago
    Communism, with over 1.5 billion people and one third of them elderly that is a lot of mouths to feed. The young will likely survive and the old will likely die and all the better for the regime. Cull the weak among them! Tariffs have their economy on the down slide and their money machine and manufacturing are running for cover to other countries. America, Trump and all other countries are their enemy so by planned genocide directed toward the weak and the rest of this entire world these sick bastards think they will come out ahead.
    What we should do is send Bernie over there to the rescue!
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  • Posted by exceller 4 years, 1 month ago
    The timing alone is very suspect.

    Just after China signed the trade deal with the USA.

    I read a commentator the other day (with a grain of salt) that the Chinese planned to release this virus in order to wreck the global economy.

    According to him, they had the medicine ready to stop it (losing a few thousand Chinese in the process is small change by communist standards), which seems to be the stage they are in now.

    The rest of the world will continue to suffer economically, financially and socially. Spain just announced a 5,000+ increase in infections in a mere 24 hours.

    China is already saying they have no intentions to adhere to the trade agreement rules.

    I don't trust them for a second.
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    • Posted by term2 4 years, 1 month ago
      The chinese government is EVIL to the core. If this is what they wanted- to destroy the global economy, they are succeeding thanks to goverment reaction to the virus. By the time the virus has run its course, the USA economy, as well as many others, will be severely damaged.
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    • Posted by $ nickursis 4 years, 1 month ago
      No, you can't, rumor is they still have a large amount of people getting sick, but if not reported, they don't exist. Thus all the travel bans and clamp down, if you are in place sheltering, then you can't complain you can't go to China.
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