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Freedom and Virtue

Posted by JohnBrown 10 years, 8 months ago to Philosophy
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Is a high degree of responsibility necessary for the people to live in freedom? Do the people have to be responsible, honest, and hard-working—in a word, virtuous—before they can handle freedom? It can be a chicken-and-egg argument, certainly. Do the people lose their virtue and then lose their liberty? Or, do they gradually lose their liberty and then lose their virtue, in proportion? The cause and effect is important, because it provides a clue about how best to restore freedom. If the former, then the people must be taught virtue again, presumably by the State. But this approach is hopeless and absurd. Or, the people might somehow be drawn again to religion and absorb the moral teachings therein.

To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical idea.
—James Madison

In any case, if the people lose their virtue and then lose their freedom, there would need to be a moral revival before we could return to freedom. But if the people lose their liberty and then their virtue, the approach is more straightforward: set them free. When people are free to face the full consequences of making poor or immoral choices; when sloth, greed, envy, lying, cheating, stealing, unreliability, and broken promises have real social and economic consequences, they will be induced to become more virtuous. When the State penalizes saving and investment, when it taxes incomes and wealth away, and when it provides unearned benefits for free, it not only discourages positive, productive behavior, it rewards bad character at the same time. It subsidizes bad behavior.

To reward responsibility and penalize irresponsibility, we don't need a moral revival first. Just set everyone free. Let people make mistakes, let them live by their own choices. Let them learn, let them experiment, let them cooperate. Wards of the State are not self-reliant, competent, independent individuals. In freedom, individuals build good character. In freedom, relationships are strengthened; societies become more virtuous. Harry Browne wrote an article on this topic that addresses the issue quite well.



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  • Posted by khalling 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    hey! my dad too. AF Okinawa.
    You and I will disagree where national treasure was used in a war. no choice. heck, as we showed in Germany, we'll help you rebuild. We like stable governments to trade with. No stable government was put into place in the hot wars over there.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I seriously doubt that Joan's plan included getting burned at the stake. I wonder if someone could have asked her as they were lighting the fire, 'How's that faith working for you?', what her answer would have been.
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  • Posted by helidrvr 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Well, that is your opinion and dearly held by the looks of it. Far be it for me to argue opinions. We all have and cherish ours.
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  • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Which brings us to the main difference between man and beasts--our gift of foresight, our ability to comprehend the about-to-be, our "fall from grace", our knowledge of moral pragmatism. Our awareness of death and of a tomorrow, and on and on...
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    blarman; "Stepping into the great unknown" is what a truly free man requires. Following the map and rules set forth by others for your life means that you are living the others' lives, not your own.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Herb; Excellent-your use of volition necessary to freedom hits the nail on the head. When freedom is restricted, volition is removed. When volition is removed, the very essence of humanity is no more. The examples throughout history are numerous and horrendous. +1
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  • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Good point. And therein lies the lament of the Second-hander. Someone who feels he has value only if others give it to him. Another reason I am against Common Core. That a child can only feel worth if he is the same as another child. Can give rise to bullying.
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  • -3
    Posted by helidrvr 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Patents are a coercively created monopoly. Not factual property, but fictional "legal" property.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 8 months ago
    Virtue: Another of those so mis-used and mis-understood words to be meshed with different human's concepts of what morality is.

    A truly free man doesn't need such a word or concept since he measures his life and achievements with rationally applied logic. It is a word that only applies to those wishing to be accepted by others, that relies on his image as reflected in the eyes of others to determine his worth, rather than his own happiness. That type of person, rather than the free man, never leaves his home without his mask of 'virtue' and lives in constant fear of being 'found out'.

    The free man lives his life without concern or regard for the moral definition of others, confident in his own decisions and actions. Be mistrustful of any man that describes himself as virtuous and search behind his mask.
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  • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Education is very important. I think after the civil war, the slaves were easily taken advantage of because of their lack of education, giving rise to a unreasonable "reconstruction".
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  • Posted by CarolSeer2014 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Food for thought, Robbie. But mayhap a little too idealistic.
    I was thinking of the Russian peasants, who so much wanted nothing to do with the "collective"
    that they ate their seed grain and slaughtered their animals; then were sent to the Gulag.
    Listen to Rachmaninoff's Variations on a Theme of Paganini; the feelings are written into the music.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Japan wasn't keen on it. My dad served in Japan during the US occupation (during the Korean War). I agree with all of your last comments. However, even though I know our Constitution is superior based on reason and logic, I am willing to let others realize this, rather than dictate it. The time spent in learning the wisdom of our Constitution will have its rewards.

    Read
    http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Prime_Di...
    It is a reasonable evolution of AR philosophy.
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  • Posted by khalling 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Oh and let's get even more specific. What about patents? I can hardly sign a contract with millions of people to enforce my ownership. This is a good example, not "a special class" of rights.
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  • Posted by khalling 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "my subsequent enforcement efforts are therefore defensive in nature." that's government. It makes no difference whether it is privately contracted or not. Why is it coercion that everybody knows this is going to happen up front? How are you not voluntary in agreeing to pay for said enforcement. What stops the majority of your society from breaking agreements right and left? If you just kick the abusers out, well we are in a fiefdom situation. small pockets of cooperaters agreeing to trust on e another. How do I get remedy from the person who walks into my gallery and starts taking pictures of all my stuff? Tehy didn't agree to anything. How efficient is it, that everytime someone wants to browse in my gallery I have them sign a release agreeing not to take pictures and use for their own gain. Property rights should be uniform and and enforced uniformly to have value.
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  • Posted by khalling 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I'm sure Japan wasn't too keen on it with their "exceptional culture." You ignore their griping. Heck-do we not think our own Constitution is superior based on reason and logic? Bush didn't obviously. or he caved to whiners. Part of teh virtue is in the ability to spend time gathering the knowledge. If you are constantly in a Malthusian situation, if you are fending off violence and theft constantly-where are you picking up much virtue? People develop codes of honor but often it is more from ritual than understanding. We are the virtuous and we won the war (or did). Our system has been objectively proven to be superior for you. Watch people get virtuous, as philosophers and freedom lovers keep battling out the war of ideas. The loss of virtue in our own society came as we took the good for granted and evil influences crept in and grabbed hold. that's why your average american on the street has no idea about the virtue of freedom, its importance to natural and property rights. We allowed schools and universities to become arms of a hungry government teaching how many generations of children concepts that are anything but virtuous. But that indoctrination would melt away quickly if we started upholding the Constitution and threw out bad legislators and quit taking from the middle class to give to moochers-both crony and those who stay under the poverty line who are able bodied to hold down a job or two.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Why, Herb? Why can't a rational and reasoning mind come to a conclusion that includes faith?

    What you describe as faith is nonsense. I've jumped out of a plane several times. Never did I expect God to spare my life (but the damned chute packer better have done the job right, or they would have had some 'splainin' to do).
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 8 months ago
    It is empirically clear that people lose their virtue first and then their liberty. The opposite would be impossible, as a free and virtuous people would not allow their freedom to be taken from them. Only a corrupt, yet free people, will allow that freedom to be taken from them.

    Thus, as you identify, the solution is readily apparent.
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  • Posted by helidrvr 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    There is a huge difference between coercion and contract enforcement. The former is aggressive and a clear violation of the LONA, the latter is defensive and therefore no violation of the LONA.

    All property rights are the same in principle. Differentiating "intellectual" as a special class is a red herring. If I make a painting, that is a priori my property. If I choose to let you take a photo of it without attaching any conditions, then the painting remains my property and the photo of it is yours. If, before allowing you to photograph it, I obtain your agreement to refrain from showing the photo to anybody else or to distribute copies of it to your friends, then I have an enforceable contract, voluntarily (not coerced) entered into by you. If you subsequently break your promise, then you are committing a fraud upon me in violation of the LONA and my subsequent enforcement efforts are therefore defensive in nature, not a violation of the LONA.

    This is no different from me letting you stay in my cottage for the weekend on condition that you refrain from bringing strangers or throwing a party.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Trying to change her mind might well be an exercise in futility. However, you still can love her. I'm sure she has many other virtues. Without being nosily intrusive, I can say from experience, be sure to be there for her if her faith fails her.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    So you're saying that we should have instituted a US-like Constitution in Iraq and Afghanistan? That could have been done, but wouldn't have worked because many of their citizens would have a) resented us for "imposing our will on them" and b) would have had all the same religious objections that you pointed out. I liked this thread precisely because I think the virtue has to come before the freedom. Correct me if I'm wrong, please, but I think you are saying that once freed and given a US-like Constitution that they could have become virtuous later. If so, then we do disagree.
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  • Posted by khalling 10 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "..was that a liberated people would be capable of being taught how to become a culture worthy of America's considerable effort and treasure..." A Constitution like the US would have worked and quickly. Part of their religious culture includes enforcement mechanisms for disobeying. Punishments are harsh. IF you strictly enforce separation between the church and the government, you would see a huge decline in supporting that culture. Reason and logic in systems lead to prosperity for a nation. The same is true in Gaza. Those who settle in Israel prosper compared to those under Hamas rule. The hatred is real but you also have thousands, millions of young men with no prospects. Give them prospects by a government set up to protect their rights. I guess I tend to rebel a little about people being liberated from slavery unable to stabilize. It is the rule of law, based on rights, that sets the stage for peaceful co-existence and production.I also make that point because I'm having discussions with other gulchers about NAP. The rule of law is not about coercion as much as self-defense. It allows people to concentrate on being productive for themselves and their families. It's as destructive to say a US Constitution is coercive as to say a US Constitution does not cover "rights" such as housing, education, retirement, healthcare.
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