Exactly, study the War of 1812 and the difficulties they had and how one loan from a banker kept the country going. But then, he too, was probably a statist...seems the only label being used.

Because most of us understand reality and do not live in a land of philosophical fantasy. We know where the rubber meets the road, and that, while you may live in the clouds of fantasy and perfection in your utopian society, we have to deal with the real world full of evil and malice.

Tariffs & import duties were virtually the only taxes at the beginning of the Republic until the whiskey tax.

On Sonoma - My first visit to the "wine country" in CA was on a business trip that included a visit with a cousin living in Mountain View in '83 (iirc.) My cousin's boyfriend picked us up in his Jensen Healy convertible and I rode crouching down behind the seats from Mountain View to Chateau Souverain and back with many tasty stops along the way.
Thanks for sharing your experience in Budapest. I hope I'll be able to visit there sometime.

The "dodge" comment was not a personal attack. It was an assessment of your response style. You still haven't offered your solution.

Well, I guess the Olive Oil market is going to get a beating then, if they apply it to that, although there is probably a lot of ties between cooperation in investigating the deep state vs application of tariffs.

So then, you would have no one be President? You seem to have little grasp of the reality of politics today.

Conservatives argue from "tradition" as if that were the basis and starting point, but you don't have to go back to 1919 for what they are pushing today -- immigration union protectionism, censorship, tariffs, ...

It's understandable that people who don't know the history and the proper principles could be mislead by today's widespread demagoguery, but you would think that on an Ayn Rand forum there would be more intellectual curiosity. Those influenced by conservativism mistakenly thinking that it is the philosophical basis of America don't have to stay that way.

"Today's conservatives are yesterday's "liberal" leftists"
Exactly. It's 2019 but the conservative movement is more and more looking like the democrats from 1919.

No difference in what between what "2"?

"Real patriots" are individualists, not any kind of conservatism. There is no such thing as a "real conservative" -- conservativism, like liberalism, is an imprecise term. The conservative movement at an early point in time had a better understanding of economic principles than today, but was always philosophically hopeless

No "very few" "real conservatives" were enough to elect Trump. Trump is an anti-intellectual populist and nationalist who won a backlash against the corruption of the left in the form of the Clinton mafia. Much of that support was from a corrupted version of the 'tea party' turned populist-nationalist, and evangelicals, all anti-intellectually following the "man on the white horse", but the electoral support was broader than that.

What we see now is Trump's penchant for "trade wars", not a "free for all". I advocate capitalism, which includes free trade under objective law protecting the rights of the individual, not a "free for all", which is a false alternative to conservative statism.

It is also not true that no intervention at all is the only possibility other than rampant statism. We have a mixed system. It is becoming more statist because of the widely accepted 'pragmatist' statist premises implementing collectivist-altruist premises. Getting government interference out of the economy is a very long term goal that depends on first changing the culture to become individualist based on reason and egoism. In the meantime, advocating more statism and punishment of the innocent for government policy is exactly the wrong approach.

This country was founded on the rights of the individual, not taxes. You are promoting a big increase in taxes on the innocent in order to punish someone else. It isn't even a pretense to raise money to pay for something. It is thoroughly anti-American. This is an example of conservatives as embracing leftist, collectivist, statist policies. It couldn't be any more opposed to the principles of Atlas Shrugged.

US grown olive oil will require about a 200%-400% tariff to be price competitive with Italian olive oil. That is probably the main reason that 94% of olive oil used in the US is imported. It is a big deal.

The 1953 FEE book is an example of how conservatives used to know better than to promote tariffs. The principles, the economics and politics are the same and so are the fallacious arguments for tariffs, including the "equalization of pressures" statism. The Curtiss book addresses principles, not pragmatist appeals to range of the moment events.

There are still conservatives writing about this today who know better, but not from the more extreme Trump followers who emotionally cling to his demagogic sales pitches.

Claiming that opposition to tariffs as punitive taxes on the innocent is 'out of date' because of increasing "complexity" is a very old fallacy of the left and unprincipled pragmatism from long before the 1950s. Classical liberal economists like Von Mises addressed that fallacy long ago.

Socialism is worse today in this country. In most of the world in the 1950s it was worse then, in the more extreme form of growing totalitarian communism in much of the world. Today's increase in collectivism and statism here is not an excuse for more of it promoted to solve problems caused by government with more government.

Well, at least you are now seeing that there is no difference between the 2. We have been saying that for a couple years now. It is just the real Patriots came from the "conservative" philosphy side of things. That did not ever mean "conservatives" are all good people, defending the individuals rights. They were also called "RINOs" although that is a misleading label too, but is pointed in the right direction. There are very few real "conservatives" out in the open right now, but there were enough to get Trump elected.

It is true that tariffs are taxes imposed on American consumers. Government tariffs cause higher prices on American consumption of imports targeted.

You always have a "choice" to do something else that is not taxed as much in the face of government coercion. That does not justify the coercion.

Today's conservatives are yesterday's "liberal" leftists, increasingly accepting and rationalizing collectivist-statist positions as "pragmatic" and now "acceptable".

"You have no moral right to impose taxes on innocent people to punish someone else. It does not "negate" statism; it adds to it."

That seems like a false premise, The United States was founded on import duties, it funded the government for many years, until the War of 1812 almost bankrupted the country and then the Civil War. While all taxes are a form of looting, elimination of them is not in the cards, because of TANSTAAFL. If you will have any form of government, you will always have to pay for it somehow. The only question is in what form?

There are domestic sources for Olive oil and wine, so no big deal. As the argument with ewv says, it can only go two ways: 0 tariffs/supports/subsidies, or 100% free for all. What we see now is the free for all getting up to speed. They will occasionally get to a point of subsidence, but someone always thinks they can slip something in. Canada did it with lumber, and the price of plywood went from 25.00 a sheet to 50.00. It never, ever is good for consumers.

"Someone does not want to buy imports from businesses in another country then he can choose not do it. " And that is it, your 1950's book is not relevant to today, because back then there was not the complex web of taxes, fees, and the siphoning off of money to feed the deep state projects like widespread socialism, designed to make everyone dependent on the state. The need to skim that money off, (in China and in the EU) to support their other "programs" is a driving force behind it. Trumps statements of the US being the worlds piggybank is absolutely true, His imposition of tariffs is just equalization of pressures. Many, many US products have been taxed , or "ffes or licences, or whatever) for 20-30 years now, to protect markets. China did it for 30 years with currency manipulation and theft of IP and state subsidy supports. You can either have a free market with 0 fees and taxes, or not. It cannot be a partial deal. The EU imposes a 20% end user tax on everything, making products more expensive overall. They also impose "Trade Defense Measures" against importers, rooted in politics.

https://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/acc...

They also are imposing 7.5 billion in tarrifs on US products in retaliation of Trumps imposition. Trumps impositions are based on a WTO ruling, which the EU is a member of, yet they ignore that.
https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2...

So, they were found guilty of illegally providing support to Airbus, and the WTO gave the US 7.5 billion in compensation, and when the US imposes the compensatory tariffs, you get all weirded out and cry foul?

Illogical.

While tarrifs in and of themselves are a negative thing, basically manipulation and looting, the moment one country uses them, or subsidies or any artifical support, it is doomed to a spral cascade of everyone else doing it. It can either be 0 tarrifs and supports, or a free for all, and the 0 idea will never work when people vote politicians in based on their percieved protection of their constituents, even when it is detrimental overall.

Not true, they are imposed on imports only, the consumer has a choice: Buy import, or buy domestic (with no tariff).

There is no "dodge"; that kind of snide personal attack is non-responsive. Trump's demagoguery is not the standard here.

You have no moral right to impose taxes on innocent people to punish someone else. It does not "negate" statism; it adds to it. Taxes are what "siphons off" wealth. Nothing good comes from piling statism on top of statism.

Trump's demagoguery is not economic, let alone moral, argument. Foreign governments do not "strangle into oblivion" a free society and do not create "unemployment" outside their own countries. Wealth must be produced before being traded; it is not "siphoned" -- or as Trump calls it "stolen" and "ripped off" . There is no basis for demanding that wealth remain "domestic". We pay for what we acquire through imports. We produce what someone else pays us for or we have no money to buy anything. Foreign statism cannot compete with a free society.

Conservatives (including Milton Friedman) used to understand the economic principles of this issue before following Trump the Pied Piper on the White Horse for an ex-tea party movement that has morphed into a militantly emotional and intolerant populist nationalism.

Nice dodge. Just as I thought, you have no viable solution to foreign governments creating "market distortions" that favor themselves and slowly strangle selected American enterprises into oblivion and in the name of "free trade", which in reality is "unilateral free trade", the US government is to just stand aside and let its citizens get put in the unemployment line. Yes, tariffs are a tax on the citizenry, but a properly applied retaliatory tariff only negates the "market distortion" created by the foreign government, re-prices the goods to their normal level, and prevents the wealth difference from being siphoned off by the that foreign government - the wealth stays domestic.

Now, if a foreign enterprise practicing free trade principles without government induced "market distortions" can out perform and out price a domestic enterprise, then so be it and let the best producer take the profit.

I know what is feels like being able to speak English again!

The French got over their obsession with their language, demanding that foreigners speak it if wanted to be considered for attention a long time ago, They made room for English, even the clochards on the street.

I'd love to share your wine tasting experiences around the world.

I'd like to add my own, from Budapest Hungary.

Whenever in the country for my consulting projects, I stayed at the Hilton in Buda. If you ever visited the country, this would provide you with a delightful experience in tradition and wine tasting.

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attractio...

I hate to use this link for its commercial push, just to provide a background.

The thing to concentrate on is the Faust Wine Cellar that has been set up in the 13the century remains of the Dominican Monastery as the foundation of the Hilton.

https://www.danubiushotels.com/en/our...

At any rate, we have had a superb time there. It is an experience you pay anything to have.

Descending on the steps into the belly of the building, you are surrounded with evidence the past 800 years before your time.

Then you find present state delights like the best Chardonnays and Cabs.

You can't want more than that from life!

His tariffs are taxes punitively imposed on American consumers.

Trump uses Tariffs as scare tactics or at least to show them a little pain and hoping they'll become woke in a hurry.