We should've picked Hillary, but Trump is the best

Posted by $ Thoritsu 5 years, 10 months ago to Philosophy
120 comments | Share | Best of... | Flag

A title inspired by the NYT to get attention. Just looking for a conclusive survey in this well-informed forum.

1. Who was the best candidate we could have actually gotten elected in 2016 (easter bunny is out) to optimize general freedom

2.Who was the the best presidential candidate in 2016 we could've gotten elected from an Objectivist perspective.

3. What else could (should) we be doing that would practically improve our freedom in our lifetimes?

Just preparing for the next election and getting the best input.

"Yes, but..." is a waste of everyone's time.


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  • Posted by Lucky 5 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    There are benefits from free trade even if only one side does it.
    If the other side does it, then deciding to limit trade yourself is punishing yourself for image. If they bring in tariffs it does not benefit their economy, it can benefit a few of their influential monopolists who get their government to protect them.
    I agree with the criticisms of China. Tariffs will not change any of that.
    Even complete trade embargoes do not work (see Iran, N.Korea). Only projection of force works, for that, do not weaken your economy for ineffective ideology.
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  • Posted by $ 25n56il4 5 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Bulletin! I am not watching any news channels! Consequently I am getting a lot of work done, almost completed another book! Visited with friends, and given encouragement to my younger family members. My digestion is much improved.
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  • Posted by term2 5 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    WE cant just turn off the taps immediately. Even for our small company, it will take a year to find alternate sources of supply, or perhaps revert to make our products in the USA at dramatically higher prices (or maybe go out of business). The inflation that Obama and others have caused was masked by the lower prices from china and the stockpiling of US$ that China held onto. Now the chickens will come home to roost. If we cant find alternate supplies at reasonable prices, look out for massive inflation here in the usa
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  • Posted by $ blarman 5 years, 10 months ago
    Best candidate was Cruz, but I've been more than pleasantly surprised by Trump. I'll vote for him in 2020, then hope for Cruz in 2024 if our nation survives that long...

    2. Best Objectivist candidate? Both Cruz and Gary Johnson were good candidates. All depends on how far you want to read in the religious aspect of things.

    3. VOTE. Engage your neighbors and encourage them to vote based on the issues - not the hyperbole.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 5 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If we were able to amend/rescind the Twelfth Amendment, third parties may actually stand a chance because it would mean the chance for real power going to the runner-up in a Presidential contest. Until that happens, I don't place any realistic chance in a Presidential race from a third-party candidate - much to the detriment of our great nation.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 5 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "Free trade, no tariffs, may be the only Objectivist policy"

    But that entirely depends on both of the party nations being in favor of free trade, does it not? And that makes ALL the difference in this particular dispute. China isn't a free trade nation. They don't respect property rights, they manipulate their currency, they threaten the stability of the western Pacific, and prosecute those who advocate for free speech (see the recent Hong Kong protests).

    It's nice to talk about ideals, but one has to recognize that when one of the nations in a trade policy isn't following even the basics, it isn't even on the table to talk about ideals.
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  • Posted by Lucky 5 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    .. using tariffs. ..If you don't have something to threaten them with, then you are left with "pretty please" as a negotiating tool.

    Free trade, no tariffs, may be the only Objectivist policy by which government does not instruct people or companies what to do with their property. This is on top of the economic benefits for both nations where one does and the other does not have tariffs.
    So that negotiating tool is of no benefit, your stance is that other nations can have or can not have tariffs, you do not.

    I am open to counter arguments for the case of small nations/economies.

    Responding to a point you made 4h earlier- how to respond to a central authoritarian government- they sell products to you but will not buy your products, instead they buy your office blocks, factories, mines and ports. I remain unconvinced that this is bad.
    (Again small economies has special conditions, Singapore, Luxembourg etc manage ok with relatively free trade, SriLanka not so well)

    Is Trump wrong here? Maybe it is a case of- this will hurt me but less than it will hurt you. Trump may be thinking ahead more than I am, but, I reckon, more tariffs are better for political posturing than economic benefit.
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  • Posted by $ 5 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Not trading with them at all could put us into the position Russia was during the Cold War. I don’t disagree with the idea, but it seems to drastic a change from where we are. I could see Europe start to switch horses. We need them to tow part of the line. But they are cockroaches.

    They may not need to trade with the US to survive, but they do to grow. Our experiment there was a massive failure. We funded our enemy to become economically and soon militarily significant. So stupid.

    I still say there is nothing more ironic than a “Proud Union” bumper sticker in a Walmart parking lot.
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  • Posted by term2 5 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    First of all, China already relies a lot less on making stuff fir export, so I am not so convinced the current tariffs will do much. Remember equivalent prices for us mfg are 300% of Chinese prices. If Americans, for patriotic reasons, willingly cut 50% of their purchases from China, that might crush them. Once we start down that path, there is no return for China and they realize that.

    Given china’s expansionist,warlike, and anti human rights positions, do we really want to trade with them at all? Would it make sense to trade with hitler while he was building death camps?
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  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 5 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Trump knows that it will hurt us for trade with China to be reduced. It will crush them. I think he has the upper hand and knows it.

    I think that in the end Trump wants more trade but he's right, the U.S. simply gives in to keep things placid.

    I used to accept Milton Friedman's approach that if China, or any other nation, subsidized their producers they were essentially subsidizing American consumers.

    However, with Trump's emphasis I've been rethinking this and realize that if the manufacturing job goes to China, the fact that they subsidize the goods may not make up for the lower salary of the displaced worker. It only works for us if people can find work with similar compensation. And they can't
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  • Posted by term2 5 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Consider that maybe the relatively minuscule tariffs trump placed on Chinese goods were really an initial invitation to the Chinese to engage in fair trade. But as they resisted, I think trump doesn’t want to deal with them. He is now encouraging people in the USA to use their ultimate power and just stop buying goods made in China. He can’t do that by executive order, but he can use the bully pulpit to convince us that we are shooting out selves in the foot by enriching China through trade with them. I am thinking at this point trump doesn’t want a deal- he wants trade to slow down drastically. He is even saying “they want a deal, but I am not ready “

    Smart USA companies will get the message rearrange their supply chains asap. I think tariffs will ratchet up to 100% soon
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  • Posted by $ 5 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Now if we can just get the priests of Objectivist dogma to agree with this obvious logic.
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  • Posted by $ 5 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    No real problem has an easy fix; however, many things are better than pre-prosecuting everyone for supposed crimes, e.g. gun control.
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  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 5 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Trump is using tariffs to have a lever against the Chinese protectionism and tariffs. If you don't have something to threaten them with, then you are left with "pretty please" as a negotiating tool.

    The political problem is that it hurts the businesses that trade with China and they are complaining. The business that might be created if China doesn't use trade barriers to block U.S. goods do not exist yet, so they have no lobby.
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  • Posted by bobsprinkle 5 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Absolutely!! At the very least Trump has opened up the Pandoras Box of politics and shown the squirmy little critters...aka politicians. Just maybe someof the critters will jump to a less contaminated box and try to change their ways......at least for a few election cycles.
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  • Posted by bobsprinkle 5 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    There is a VERY fine line between valid reporting someone who may be dangerous to theirselves and the public and the false (red) flag reports. The recent circumstance of "swatting" is an example of how this reporting can be abused. Those with bad intent, crazy or not can/will get their weapons from legal OR illegal sources. no easy fix here.
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  • Posted by term2 5 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    My view towards immigration is essentially similar to my view towards a stranger knocking at my front door wishing to live in my house with me. The stranger needs to convince me he/she will add to my life before I will agree to it
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  • Posted by freedomforall 5 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I agree, the proposed changes to immigration do pick immigrants who add to the country ... if the con-gress will get out of the way and let it become law.
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  • Posted by term2 5 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I think that Trump's tariff policy will be his undoing by his own hand. He needs to just say china had its chance to reform their trade policies, but they refuse. Now its just a matter of slowing and eventually stopping purchases from china as a matter of principle. USA did ok without chinese stuff in the past, and can do ok without china in the future. Better that than help china's totalitarian government ( shown by their treatment of Hong Kong) get stronger and stronger and feed their expansionist dreams
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