jlc

I do not think that it is possible - or necessary - to get a pure capitalist system, blackswan. What is necessary is to get a system that _allows_ capitalism. "Allows" in this case means "does not punish or encumber", but realize that any system so constructed would also allow other systems to be nested within it; some of these systems will be socialist.

This is OK. If someone wants to voluntarily give up the rights to their production to a commune in return for security, then that is their business - and lots of people will be in this group. The point of restructuring society will be to Include capitalism, not to Exclude other social formats.

Jan

I had to look it up. For others: "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery" (Thomas Jefferson)

Jan

I will defend this a bit. My houses have generally been purchased with the closing cost bundled in. Why not? The interest rate for doing this is low and while I can manage (eg pinch pennies on) ongoing cash flow, I generally buy at the margins of what I can afford and so am short of cash at closing. (Thus I take a little step upwards with each house.) This means that I struggle a bit, but I eventually own good equity in a worthwhile property. (It does not hurt that I tend to be attracted to 'white elephant' type houses, which I then improve.)

Townhouses and condos are a lot more risky. I have seen a number of folks sell those at a loss.
I am sorry that you are taking a loss on your townhome, Mammaemma. Have you considered keeping the place and renting it out to some of the next set of dental students coming into the school?

Jan

And we could do it too!

Jan

Humans are much better in cause-and-effect if the correlation is sooner rather than later. If you take an affluent country of hard working people with a good infrastructure, it will take a long time to drain the reserves and get to the 'will no longer work' point.

This is what is happening in California. We have a great economy here (if it were left alone) and thus we can support a large number of parasites without the 'pinch' being too tight.

Jan

We can also 'clean up' after socialism, which is what we are doing now.

Jan

Whoe. That sounds like a good story. Send more - but not on this really narrow thread.

Jan

Made my day. I am sooo ferocious...grrrr.

(It is always a relief to know that other redoubtable folks have had the same problem I have experienced insofar as freezing up under pressure for some physical tests, though.)

Jan

I think that was the correct term for your freezing up when you were shooting. I have that problem when I fight in tournaments: In challenges, I can go toe-to-toe with all except the very very best fighters...but in tournaments I tend to freeze up. It has something to do with my 'not wanting to mess up' as opposed to my 'wanting to have fun beating the crap outta my opponent'

Jan, generally has a good time

Strangely - I was musing about this last night myself. My first response to my inner question on the theoretical 'value of socialism' was that I could not think of a single thing that was positive. Then I went over history a bit more, in my brain, (this cogitation was started by some of the discussions on the Nazis with MammaEmma et al) and realized that there _was_ a positive value to socialism...if you can twist the concept of a deceitful and destructive deed enough to consider it positive.

The value of socialism is that it presents an alluring candyland vision of the future that is philosophically the antithesis of a rigid, class oriented, totalitarian culture. Lured by this vision, the masses of genuinely starving and exploited humans, who are under the thumb of the autocratic rulers, are willing to give their lives to overturn and totally destroy the despotic system in which they and their families have lived for generations.

This is what happened in Russia, China, and South America. (In China, the elite had been in control for literally thousands of years. The 'boss' level had changed, but the structure had not.) Of course, socialism cannot produce the paradise it promised because 'humans do not work that way'. (But that is a different topic.)

So: The Value of Socialism is that it is capable of painting a bright enough picture of a hypothetical future that it induces people to overturn and totally destroy a totalitarian regime.

Jan

Tommorowland was panned on io9, but it was panned with a negative comment that labeled it as John Galtist - so I had it on my watch list.

I may see it today or tomorrow.

Jan

Whew. When you posted a NAK on this, I was quite concerned. I am more comfortable in biomed than in phy-eng. That being said, I had tried to do a 'due diligence' on this topic. I was genuinely afraid I had made some incorrect assumption and meandered off the path of reality.

Jan

HA! Growlin' in empathy.

How did you get rid of your stage fright (/buck fever)?

Jan

Thank you. I value your opinion on this. I need to get 2 more ducks in a line before I commit to the solar panels - hopefully will do that later this summer.

Jan

Well...you can grumble along with me then!

Grrmph, ravhgha, fmrph.

Jan

Sorry. It's a term used a lot in biology to indicate 'something that is part of the organism'. I was thinking of my house as a big organism, with its own (endogenous) power supply and the ability to connect to the grid (exogenous) power supply.

Rereading what I wrote: I spelled "endogenous" wrong - that was probably what confused you.

Do you have any comment on the plausibility of my plan? blarman does not think it will work.

Jan, blames spellchecker
edit- added question

I find out all sorts of interesting info in the Gulch.

Jan

If you mean that there is nowhere "outside" to go in our current world (not the world of Anthem) then I would point out that many of our discussions have revolved around finding a solution to this problem. Additionally, this virtual Gulch is "outside" to a sufficient extent that topics can be discussed within the context of mutually accepted rational parameters.

This is not "outside" in terms of having a new world to colonize and 'start over' on, but it many of us have not had a context for conversations like this before.

Jan

Ha. It is my favorite.

Jan (AS is second)

It is like "jealousy". There is me-too jealousy and there is me-instead jealousy. We lack the vocabulary.

How about 'self-interested' selfishness vs 'avaricious' selfishness?

Jan

The Internet is a wonderful place. What it looks like is that while only a small percentage of the German population were Nazis, a very large percentage were followers of the cult of Hitler himself. It was noted that the Germans continued fighting until Hitler committed suicide (as opposed to tossing their rulers out in WWI). Hitler apparently controlled Germany for 12 years and while there were no surveys taken during that time, the estimates I found were that 20% - 35% of the people did not support Hitler.

I knew some Germans from that era; Eric had marched in the German army (and spent WWII in a Russian prison camp. Did you know that however hungry you are, you cannot eat crane?). He still really thought that Hitler had been right and that the Jews were the 'problem'...but you had to know him really well before he would say anything like this out loud.

Jan

Neat. Thank you.

So..."French rat" is redundant?

Jan

I took a gunmanship class at McClellan AFB, back in about 77-78. The fourth time in my life that I picked up a handgun, I shot Expert rating. I continued shooting at that level thruogh the end of the class.

The woman to the left of me also shot Expert by the end of the class, and she got a ribbon for this accomplishment because she was in a Law Enforcement type job in the AF. The man to the right of me similarly shot Expert by the end of the class, and he got his ribbon because he was a man, even though he was in a medical squadron like I was.

I outshot them both but did not get the Expert rating ribbon because I was a woman in a medical squadron. Fortunately, I am not petty and I do not still feel rancor about this, 40 years later. I don't.

I REALLY DONT CARE. DO YOU HEAR THAT? YOU CAN TAKE YOUR BLASTED RIBBON AND JUST STU....!

OK, all better now. Thanks for asking.

Jan

Timelord -

Because I am a confident and independent woman (who does martial arts as a hobby) I am frequently (as in 50% of the time by new acquaintences) thought to be gay. So, while personally straight, I have acquired something of an insiders' eye on gay rights.

Jan

I agree with khalling. And bonobos are (if I recall correctly) almost all bisexual. Their homosexual relationships function as social bonds among sexes just as their hetero relationships function as bonds between sexes.

Also, many modern primitive tribes have staged homosexuality - all of the young boys in the Men's House have a homosexual relationship with the older men there. The adult men who have moved out into their own houses are sometimes forbidden to have any further homosexual relationships (but sometimes not...think it depends on the tribe).

There is a theory that homosexuality can promote genetic survival if it leads to greater affluence for siblings. (Think of a Medieval abbot from a poor family using his influence to improve circumstances for his brothers and sisters and cousins.)

Jan