jlc

What!? My world view...CRUMBLING...!

Jan

This is a very interesting site, but there are some intrinsic inaccuracies in their reported statistics: For instance, Benjamin Franklin is listed as being "(Deist)" but there is no Deist category in the lists; Alexander Hamilton is listed as originally being "Huguenot" but there is likewise no listing for this in the stats.

The other thing that I did not find (may have missed it) is 'how' they determined the religion of an individual. The only way I would consider legit is by self-declaration - you can attend a service for social or reasons (such as keeping your SO happy).

Good info. Thank you.

Jan

Yes. Fortunately, once my father retired from the AF, I was no longer part of the "In Crowd'. This made me develop a sense of perspective of how that crowd manipulated people to conform with 'whatever was fashionable'. I did not like the Beatles, did not want to be a hippie, preferred AS to Socialism...

No one is obliged to like me or agree with me. And vice versa.

Jan

Thank you.

Jan

I hypothesize that this is what Agialoro et al have been doing, or trying to do, with their movie production/distribution company. I agree with both you and with salta in that it is necessary to get entry points to Ayn Rand's philosophy 'out there'.

I will go a step further and suggest that trivializing common forms of fictional communication is not in our best interest. How many people developed their vision of the world by watching Star Trek or reading comics? Answer: Probably a lot more than by reading philosophy texts or AS.

Our heroes used to be independent, resourceful, and competent; now they are masses of doomed, writhing, self-loathing angst. Even just getting media out that addresses the heroic archetype again is a step in our favor. Free will, freedom, competence - there are many 'baby steps' that we can take that would be hungrily seized on by audiences.

Jan

That is neat. What a great thing to do - I especially like the winner being selected rather than drawn by lot.

Congrads Dennis.

Jan
(I bet your wife is glad she is still #1...before the book!)

Oh Boy: "it's all sad, really, that our lives are so circumscripted by
things which amount to hazing -- forced conformity which
keeps us from being ourselves, from being free, from
making value with our lives in original and creative ways."

That deserves a thread of its own, johnpe!

They are. I will try to make myself invisible...

(jan)

I am a minimalist Christmas participant - do not like holidays in general. My friends generally send out lists of what they want with links attached. This makes buying a gift whole lot easier. I get together with about 5 friends, well after XMas to do the present pass-around. I sometimes buy a foot-tall tree to put on the mantel of my enormous living room, where it looks appropriately absurd.

I have gotten very determined about not donating to charities. I will donate to things I use, such as Wikipedia and my classical music radio station. This is fair trade.

How about you?

Jan, no children! yay!

Yeah, but I can at least whine about the fact that this has been the environment that we have had to deal with for many decades. I think that johnpe was talking about something that happened decades ago...

It has not gotten better.

Jan

I understand those questions, but not the fact that 'reading Ayn Rand' was on the list of suspicious material. I had a friend who did security checks on people applying for jobs - He was really not interested in anything that people were doing openly, only in what they were keeping secret.

Jan

I would like to add one observation that I think has been missed in the discussion: The roles in Victorian upper class life were that the husband dealt with 'reality' but the wife did not. A woman was supposed to be raised to be an Innocent, someone who has never had to deal with harsh reality. Her function, with respect to her husband, was that she was supposed to represent a Safe Harbor. She was someone who would always stick up for him and side with his views...because all she knew of the world was what he told her and therefore his perspective was hers as well. She was a perpetual child to his adult.

These archetypes, already quite prevalent and well established in our society, outline the roles that James wanted himself and Cheryl to play - and which Cheryl initially played to perfection. James' ego flourished under this attention, which thought him greater than his sister. When Cheryl's own personal growth and increased maturity and knowledge shattered the roles, James lashed out and Cheryl's nascent strength was destroyed.

Tragedy.

Jan

Congrads for supporting her excellence.

Jan

I just looked up various definitions and must agree that in the philosophical definition of altruism supports what you say. But certainly, the everyday use of the word "altruism" implies a voluntary action. I suppose that it would have been more technically correct (in retrospect) for me to say that if altruism is compelled, it shifts it from the trivial use of the word to the philosophical definition.

Jan

Such a comment when one lives in an era when an appreciation of a book on independence and freedom is considered a source of official concern!

Jan

I am getting close to SS age, but I am not counting on it.

Jan

This is one of the things that I am mulling over. If you have any more insights, please share them.

Jan

The IRS does not even attempt to call taxes "voluntary" though.

Jan

I recall those signs. I remember that I gladly gave the first few times I was asked, but eventually I realized that it was an extortion business and I stopped giving. (It was harder for them to get hold of me because I worked graveyard shift.)

My time in the military has done nothing to disabuse me of belief in the "Bell Curve". The people I met there ran the gamut from straight-up sorts to utter sleazes.

I was a Sgt, but my father was an officer and he was an honorable man who kept his word and took care of his men. He was a war-time officer, though, and while he was capable of great diplomacy he did not prosper in a peacetime military: When it came down to the wire, taking care of his men was his highest priority. (Yes, he was a Maverick - or I guess they call them Mustangs now).

Jan

Which is part of the reason we all meet here!

Jan

If someone compels me to give something, it is not altruism. If someone tries to shame me into giving something - such as the United Way campaigns that are prevalent at some workplaces, and which try to embarrass you if you don't give to them - I just say "no" and move on.

I think I am probably in good and ample company here with respect to reacting negatively if someone tries to force me to do something or manipulate me. Eh?

Jan

Only a small percentage (how small depends on the overlap) took classes, attended meetings, or otherwise did something that would label them as objectivists. The rest of the group simply read Ayn Rand's (or other author's) books and self-identified.

What that means to me is that if someone were to round up 'all objectivists', many would be overlooked.

Jan

My mother had a good solution to that: my hand got stabbed with a fork if I tried that with her. And she stabbed hard!

Jan

johnpe -

When I think of 'how I wish the world would work' I agree with you. When I consider 'how it would actually function', I think that it would probably be necessary for the ever-engorging State to take care of the castoffs of society. I can't think of any examples of totally private/religious institutions actually doing this job. It might be possible; it would be nice if it would work for private institutions to do this, but I feel that it might be a "too many cattle on the Commons" situation, only in this case it would be a "taking care of these people is someone else's problem".

I completely agree that this would be an opening for the State to increase in size and the number of people taken care of to expand. Perhaps if one required that the people taken care of be institutionalized it would help limit the numbers...? I am really only referring to people who are in comas, have IQ of 60, etc.

Jan, not sure