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Walter Williams Nails IT

Posted by khalling 9 years, 8 months ago to Culture
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I wouldn't be that polite...


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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 8 months ago
    Of course W.W. nails it. But, up will pop the thing we have been taught about in schools, churches and synagogues. Altruism. It is held to be of the highest of virtues, but what is it in reality? That's where A.R. nails it."The basic principle of altruism is that man has no right to exist for his own sake....." Embracing Mr. Williams' quote automatically will label you as heartless and cruel. So, as those who have never questioned the teachings of their religion, or education fade away from you as friends, or relatives, you must resign yourselves to people who ask questions and get answers. There are more than a few in this forum, and to my surprise, one or two appear to me every now and then. You might consider the loss of certain persons sad, but is it?
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    • Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 8 months ago
      Herb; "You might consider the loss of certain persons sad, but is it?" No, I don't see it as sad. It's just the natural progression of things--some learn and grow, some don't.

      You've done your own nailing it.
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    • Posted by RonC 9 years, 8 months ago
      Altruism is a fine and noble thing if that is what you choose to do with your money or property. To let the progressive politicians choose my money for their altruistic missions is not altruism. It's grand theft without a felony designation.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 8 months ago
        Altruism, even with the most honorable of motives is never a fine and noble thing, since self-sacrifice is never a fine and noble thing. Let me give you the rest of the Ayn Rand quote: "..that service to others is the only justification for his (man's) existence, and that self sacrifice is his highest moral duty, virtue and value." She goes on, "Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which in fact, altruism makes impossible." I think you have confused altruism with kindness, good will, etc.
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        • Posted by RonC 9 years, 8 months ago
          You are probably correct. I most likely have an ill conceived definition of the word due to over exposure to progressive news media. Thank you for the thoughtful correction.
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          • -6
            Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 8 months ago
            No, AR used tortured definitions to further her subversion of other philosophies whereby those concepts have a positive connotation. What AR describes is slavery or bondage, not altruism. Similar issue with selfishness vs. self-interest.
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            • Posted by Solver 9 years, 8 months ago
              AR got the definition and concept she uses from Auguste Comte, who originally invented the term.

              This down to the bone definition is also on Wikipedia under "altruism",
              "Pure altruism consists of sacrificing something for someone other than the self (e.g. sacrificing time, energy or possessions) with no expectation of any compensation or benefits, either direct, or indirect (e.g., receiving recognition for the act of giving)."

              AR considered this type of negative trade evil.
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              • Posted by readthebook 9 years, 7 months ago
                This is what Ayn Rand wrote, correctly, about alturism:

                "What is the moral code of altruism? The basic principle of altruism is that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the only justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, virtue and value.

                "Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice—which means; self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction—which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good.

                "Do not hide behind such superficialities as whether you should or should not give a dime to a beggar. That is not the issue. The issue is whether you do or do not have the right to exist without giving him that dime. The issue is whether you must keep buying your life, dime by dime, from any beggar who might choose to approach you. The issue is whether the need of others is the first mortgage on your life and the moral purpose of your existence. The issue is whether man is to be regarded as a sacrificial animal. Any man of self-esteem will answer: 'No.' Altruism says: 'Yes.'”

                from “Faith and Force: The Destroyers of the Modern World,” in the anthology Philosophy: Who Needs It

                and

                "There are two moral questions which altruism lumps together into one 'package-deal': (1) What are values? (2) Who should be the beneficiary of values? Altruism substitutes the second for the first; it evades the task of defining a code of moral values, thus leaving man, in fact, without moral guidance."

                "Altruism declares that any action taken for the benefit of others is good, and any action taken for one’s own benefit is evil. Thus the beneficiary of an action is the only criterion of moral value—and so long as that beneficiary is anybody other than oneself, anything goes."

                from “Introduction”, The Virtue of Selfishness

                There are more excerpts at http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/altrui...

                "The Virtue of Selfishness is a collection of essays presenting Ayn Rand’s radical moral code of rational selfishness and its opposition to the prevailing morality of altruism—i.e., to the duty to sacrifice for the sake of others."

                And noting that Comte explicitly sought to wipe causality out of philosophy, it is important to understand Ayn Rand's explanation of the role of causality and rejection of duty in ethics: “Causality Versus Duty,” in her anthology Philosophy: Who Needs It. http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/duty.h...
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              • Posted by readthebook 9 years, 7 months ago
                This is what Comte himself wrote about his concept of altruism as an ethical standard in his Catechisme Positiviste (Catechism of Positivism), 1852:

                "Positivism alone holds at once both a noble and true language when it urges us to live for others. This, the definitive formula of human morality, gives a direct sanction exclusively to our instincts of benevolence, the common source of happiness and duty. Implicitly and indirectly it sanctions our personal instincts, as the necessary conditions of our existence, with the proviso that they must be subordinate to those of altruism. With this limitation, we are even ordered to gratify our personal instincts, with the view of fitting ourselves to be better servants of Humanity, whose we are entirely." p313

                "Positivism recognizes no right in anybody but the right to do his duty. To speak more accurately, our religion imposes on all the obligation to help every one to discharge his peculiar function. In politics we must eliminate Rights, as in philosophy we eliminate causes... All honest and sensible men, of whatever party, should agree, by a common consent, to eliminate the doctrin of rights. Positivism only recognizes duties, duties of all to all. Placing itself, as it does, at the social point of view, it cannot tolerate the notion of rights, for such notion rests on individualism. We are born under a load of obligations of every kind, to our predecessors, to our successors, to our contemporaries. After our birth these obligations increase or accumulate..." p331-2

                from translation by R. Congreve, London: Kegan Paul, 1891
                https://archive.org/details/catechismpos...
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              • Posted by readthebook 9 years, 7 months ago
                You are right that Ayn Rand used the full philosophical concept of altruism as formulated and popularized by Comte (1798-1857). Contrary to the falsehoods of Robbie53024's snide denuncations, it is not a "tortured definition", she did not "leave out the motivation", altruism does not mean "charity", and she did not "confuse it with slavery". Slavery is only one of the consequences of the altruist ethical standard that demands duty to live for others as the fundamental principle, in direct opposition to egoism.

                From Webster's Dictionary Unabridged, 2nd ed, 1979:

                Altruism, n. [Fr. altuisme, from It. altrui, of or to others, from L. alter, another. A term first emplyed by the Positivists, or followers of the French philosopher Comte.] unselfish concern for the welfare of others: opposed to egoism.

                From the Dictionary of Philosophy, Runes, ed, 1962 edition:

                Altruism: (Alter: other) In general, the cult of benevolence; the opposite of egoism. Term coined by Comte and adopted in Britain by H. Spencer.

                For Comte Altruism meant the discipline and eradiction of self-centered desire, and a life devoted to the good of others; more particularly, selfless love and evotion to Society. In brief, it involved the self-abnegating love of Catholic Christianity redirected towards Humanity conceived as an ideal unity. As thus understood, altruism involves a conscious oppostion not only to egoism (whether understood as excessive or moderate self-love), but also to the formal or theological pursuit of charity and to the atomic or individualistic social philosophy of 17th-18th century liberalism, of utilitarianism, and of French Ideology.
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              • -4
                Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 8 months ago
                But what that leaves out is the motivation for doing so, which seems to be the crux of AR's definition - that it is an obligation that harnesses the individual. To me, that is slavery or bondage. If I do something of sacrifice for another person with absolutely no expectation of compensation or benefit other than my own satisfaction, that is an altruistic act.

                Tortured definition.
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                • Posted by Solver 9 years, 8 months ago
                  Why should the basic definition include everyone's motivation as if it is from a collective mind? This is a moral debate. Do we do the things we do because afterwards we will feel good, or we will have a better chance to get to heaven, or we will make new friends, or we will get some other gain? What really motivates us? Is what motivates you, motivate me, or everyone else?
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                  • -2
                    Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 8 months ago
                    Because in this instance, motivation seems to be the crux of the issue, thus it is relevant.
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                    • Posted by Solver 9 years, 8 months ago
                      So just to be clear, the basic definition for words like, “altruism” should include the motivation for everyone even if it is different for each individual and still debatable?
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                      • -3
                        Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 8 months ago
                        No. I'd prefer that the proper terminology be used. But I doubt that the rest of the O community is going to change just for li'l ol' me.
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                        • Posted by Solver 9 years, 8 months ago
                          So then you do not think the proper terminology is being used in the "pure" wikipedia definition of, "altruism?"
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                          • -1
                            Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 8 months ago
                            Well, I don't put any faith in anything from Wikipedia. Any source that can be changed by someone on a whim doesn't seem like a reliable source to me.

                            I don't see a requirement to perform an act anywhere in the common definitions of altruism. AR seems to include that as part of her definition. As I've said, if you include the requirement aspect, that seems more like slavery or bondage.
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                            • Posted by Solver 9 years, 8 months ago
                              Wikis use collective voting systems so you shouldn't trust them or other such sources for total truth.

                              How would an individual's choice to practice altruism be slavery or bondage? It only becomes so when when some other person or group demands “social altruism” for "the greater good" or such.
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                              • -2
                                Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 8 months ago
                                Why do you want to go round and round on this?

                                AR defined altruism as a requirement to give oneself for others. That is slavery. If you choose to do so, I see that as charity. 'nuff said.
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                                • Posted by Solver 9 years, 8 months ago
                                  Sorry, I missed that particular AR definition. Could you point it out? I tend to want to look at the actual quotes of what people said and not what people say they said.
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                                  • Robbie53024 replied 9 years, 8 months ago
            • Posted by 9 years, 8 months ago
              She did not subvert other philosophies. What nonsence.
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              • Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 8 months ago
                She did study and learn from other philosophies--particularly what didn't work and what led to irrational and illogical behavior. Because some are taught from their earliest age that something is positive--even when shown that their learned definitions aren't right or even reasoned--they actually try to do the subversion.
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              • Posted by RonC 9 years, 8 months ago
                All I was saying is that I am fully aware I may not know the definition of every word in our English language. This is particularly true when the progressive movement purposely bastardized the language by creating new meanings for words we all think we understand. This may be why news commentators now find the need to tell us what the President or Senate majority leader really said.
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                • Posted by 9 years, 8 months ago
                  I know exactly what you mean. I'm responding to Robbie's "subversion" argument. Words have specific meanings, but when the concept is philosophical or scientific, the meanings somewhat change. Her philosophy was new. She chose words to describe her concepts. "selfishness" is an important concept. Instead of subverting it, she gave it its meaning back
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                  • -2
                    Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 8 months ago
                    No she didn't. She could have more rightly called it "rational self-interest" which would have been more correct, and not had such controversy. But that's what she wanted, since controversy drives interest. Same thing with altruism. Had she said bondage or enslavement, nobody would have blinked twice.
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              • -4
                Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 8 months ago
                Of course she did. It is inherent in any organism. In order to live, an organism needs to grow. In a world of limitations, in order to grow, something else must wither and die.
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                • Posted by LetsShrug 9 years, 8 months ago
                  How much Rand have you read?
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                  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 8 months ago
                    You wouldn't believe it. In college, lo,
                    these many years ago, I took a speed
                    reading class. I go back over important stuff quite often. I've read all the novels, the polemics, and I have every newsletter, from Brandon to the time they were discontinued. Also, every biography by those who loved her and those who -- not so much. In addition I have met many of the "collective." Am I bragging? Yes. But still, I guess I'm as objective-ish as a person can be, knowledge-wise in any case.
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                    • Posted by 9 years, 8 months ago
                      wow, herb, impressive. I think LS was asking robbie that. He has admitted to not feeling the need to do much digging there because he doesn't like Objectivist answers to some basic questions he has. I commonly discuss Objectivism with people who cannot get beyond the "selfishness" concept. Altruism is firmly rooted in their understanding of the world.
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                      • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 8 months ago
                        I don't always agree with A.R. as well as other Objectivists. So, what? I always learn from these persons which is refreshing, because, in most cases, usually I wind up teaching. It doesn't often stick, except for a few. The few does make it worth it. Further, when starting out to disagree with Gulchers or others of that caliber, I often find myself reappraising and then agreeing. I have to admit, I love being proved wrong on those rare occasions.
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    • -1
      Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 8 months ago
      Herb, we're going to have to disagree on this one. I believe that AR used a tortured definition of altruism in order to turn a positive connotation into a negative on in order to subvert those who believe in the more positive view. I would call what you describe slavery or bondage.
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      • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 8 months ago
        The crux of the matter is sacrifice. If we take the definition of altruism as "unselfish concern for the welfare of others" and delete the word "unselfish" we get "concern for the welfare of others" which closely approximates both your, mine, and A.R. 's OK list. That works, so long as the "others" are not defined. If we start talking about who or what the others are we will get mired in a long list of who deserves our concern. If we get into the "unselfish" part, then we get stuck in that tar-pit of sacrifice. Rand also gives an answer, I think in the Playboy interviews, in which she does justify unselfish concern for loved ones -- but I'd have to scrounge to find the quote on that. Robbie, I don't think our disagreement is actually a disagreement. More like a clarification of definitions. In any case, we might have a discussion on definitions at some future time. So many arguments are based on incorrectly or vaguely defined things that create much misunderstandings.
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  • Posted by RonC 9 years, 8 months ago
    Dr. Williams, "Black by Popular Demand", has observed many truths overlooked by progressives. My favorite is his description of the rungs of the economic ladder and how governments remove the lower rungs...keeping people on the bottom without the first few steps up and out of poverty. Regulations that require a license for everything from a vegetable push cart to a taxi to a hair braiding parlor set these easily capitalized lower rung businesses just out of reach for those that need them most. The same is true for the minimum wage. Putting a higher number on the wage makes it less likely an unskilled worker can produce enough to earn his keep.
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  • Posted by robertmbeard 9 years, 8 months ago
    Government is supposed to promote "equal justice" not "social justice". The Law should treat every individually equally -- no special favors, no robbing Peter to pay Paul in exchange for Paul's vote in the next election... "Equal justice" is the only moral way to run government. "Social justice" is just another buzz word label for the latest system of special favors and unequal treatment by government...
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    • Posted by Non_mooching_artist 9 years, 8 months ago
      One hundred percent true. There is actually no such thing as social justice. Filling out an application, whether it's for a job or for college, I think is invasive in the extreme. The questions of ethnicity should be obliterated! Merit should be the only governing factor in deciding on the worthiness of a potential employee or student. Period. There is no bias. Gender should not be a factor either. Leave those spaces blank next time you have to fill out a form. Do it and see the person who has to go over it squirm. That would be an excellent lesson in showing that " social justice" is nothing but a divisive sham being used to herd the sheeple.
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  • Posted by dougthorburn 9 years, 8 months ago
    For the amount of time you spent working for earnings that an enforcer of "social justice" took from you without your personal consent, you were a slave.
    And I thought slavery was abolished nearly 150 years ago. Silly me.
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  • Posted by Solver 9 years, 8 months ago
    Someone did try to explain his thoughts on this subject. It went something like:
    Blah, blah blah...roads and bridges...blah, blah...If you have earned it, you didn't build that, you don't own that, you didn't earn that. Somebody else did.
    (not the exact quote but you get the idea)
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    • Posted by $ allosaur 9 years, 8 months ago
      Yeah, I can visualize that someone (every time he moves his lips) raising a Bin Laden finger and swiveling his head amid a sea of Munchkin admirers as he bobs about in a Wizard Of Oz kinda bubble to which a sign is attached, it saying, "Give it up for the 2013 Lie Of The Year Winner."
      (Psst! That "give it up" part does not only mean for a clueless libtard to clap his hands).
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  • Posted by thomasadecker 9 years, 8 months ago
    I'm damn tired of any reference to race. The concept of race is artificial. With rare exceptions we look like our biological parents and that's it. It is not skin color or hair texture or any other physioligical feature that separates or joins individuals; rather it is the values we hold. I look much more like Bill Clinton than I do either Walter Williams ar Thomas Sowell--but that's where any similaity with Slick Willie ends. I have much more in common with Drs. Williams and Sowell.
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  • Posted by $ winterwind 9 years, 8 months ago
    I might have turned the end slightly, and said one of the following -
    A: Well, then, tell me what part of what you earn belongs to me.
    or the less polite
    B. So some of what you earn belongs to me - your wallet, please?
    I like to make it personal.
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  • Posted by johnmahler 9 years, 8 months ago
    I agree with Walter Williams, my favorite thinker / columnist. This is no way in deprecation of what is said here. I mean only clarification. Please watch the video "The Greatest Scam in Human History", even if you are a economics major or investor. It is a great explanation and good to have as a resource for those who we encounter from time to time who confuse bank notes and money. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDe5kUU...
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  • Posted by $ arthuroslund 9 years, 8 months ago
    He has always been my favorite Economist. He once suggested reading "FDR's Folly" by Jim Powell. I recommend it to everyone who would like to get the real story about the Great Depression instead of Democrat Party Propaganda.
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    • Posted by gtebbe 9 years, 8 months ago
      arthuroslund, thanks for the tip, I've been looking at the list of chapters in this book, and the book is definitely intriguing. Maybe I'll pass it around after reading it; even my conservative friends cannot wrap their heads around what FDR was really up to.
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  • -1
    Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 8 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Sorry, I'm not your research assistant. Enough Objectivists have said so. I take them at their word. If they don't know what they adhere to, why should I?
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    • Posted by Solver 9 years, 8 months ago
      “AR defined altruism as a requirement to give oneself for others.”

      I originally assumed that what you wrote is what Ayn Rand actually said about altruism.
      I did a google search on what you said Ayn Rand used for the definition and got no matches at all.
      I wouldn't use that as what Ayn Rand actually said but more likely as a form of what others have said Ayn Rand said.
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      • -1
        Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 8 months ago
        OK. You forced me. In her own words.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51pMod2Aa...

        How she defines altruism isn't the dictionary definition. What she defines is bondage or slavery.
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        • Posted by Solver 9 years, 8 months ago
          I forced you?

          I watched the whole video and honestly did not hear AR say what you wrote, which is, altruism is “a requirement to give oneself for others.” She does say many other things about altruism.

          The video does show a definition at the beginning,
          "altruism: unselfish regard for the devotion to the welfare of others.”
          But this seems to be one of many dictionary definitions and I could not match it with an AR quote.
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          • Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 8 months ago
            at about the 2.40 mark: Man needs to serve others to justify themselves is altruism.

            If you really watched that video and couldn't see this come through clearly, then there's nothing more that I can do for you.
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      • -2
        Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 8 months ago
        So, you've had an hour and a half and I see that you've posted within that time, so am I correct or not? I provided you the info in a method that is irrefutable, her own mouth. Are you willing to accept that I am correct on this?
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