I'm curious, were there any lawyers in the Gulch?

Posted by Robbie53024 9 years, 8 months ago to Books
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I don't seem to remember any lawyers. I might be wrong. There was Judge Narragansett, but that's a judge not a lawyer.


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  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 8 months ago
    Thomas Jefferson, John Adams and George Washington were all lawyers. Judges are lawyers with rare exception. I am sure we would have no use for the founding fathers in the Gulch.
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    • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 8 months ago
      But Jefferson and Washington were so much more than lawyers.
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      • Posted by 9 years, 8 months ago
        And at least for Jefferson and Washington, their impact wasn't as lawyers.
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        • Posted by khalling 9 years, 8 months ago
          How can you say their study of the law did not have an impact. Jefferson wrote our founding document using the knowledge and skills he acquired in part from that study. They chose their field I assume with some care. They certainly come off in the history books as deliberate individuals. Is Ben Franklin any MORE important to our founding because he was not a lawyer?
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          • Posted by 9 years, 8 months ago
            Not what I said. What I said, was that their major contribution wasn't in the field of law. Adams, perhaps, but not Jeff/Wash.

            I think that the study of most professions adds skills that individuals can leverage in many areas. I suspect that if Franklin had been pressed, he could have stood up to the best of them in a courtroom of the day. Not sure that the same could be said for Jeff/Wash/Adams in a science lab.

            Their professions don't make them any more or less "important" to the founding. They each brought things that were needed. Paine a brilliant conveyor of ideas, Franklin a savvy and tough negotiator, Washington a stalwart commander, Jefferson a skilled integrator and synthesizer, the list goes on. Adams is the only one who stands out in my mind as notable for his legal background specifically - and for the courage to defend British soldiers because it was the moral thing to do.
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          • Posted by Hiraghm 9 years, 8 months ago
            "They chose their field I assume with some care"

            Negative. One of the things they had in common was that they were renaissance men. Adams was a farmer. Also a lawyer.
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      • Posted by khalling 9 years, 8 months ago
        You 're so much more than a professor. I 'm not sure why the study of law is taking such a bad wrap the last day in here. All lawyers are not ambulance chasers. All bankers are not corrupt either. Will we have a banking system in the gulch? Understanding the law can be a worthy effort it 's how documents like the Constitution came to be so well written. Madison, a lawyer who chose not to practice law, wrote the majority of the amendments in the Bill of Rights.
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        • Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 8 months ago
          Lawyers get a bad rap because so many people only have negative experiences with them.

          Over and above the portrayals in the movies, TV and books, the ambulance chaser ads. etc
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          • Posted by khalling 9 years, 8 months ago
            It's a good point. Personally I have a hard time with the Accounting profession. There are producers in every field. Maybe in a gulch our experiences would be so positive, it might change our thinking completely on what these professionals can offer of value.
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            • Posted by Technocracy 9 years, 8 months ago
              One more point that I left out in my earlier reply that is likely germaine as well.

              People are fed up with government and "agencies" both so lets look around.

              President - lawyer
              First lady - lawyer
              Supreme court - all lawyers
              Senate - majority lawyers
              House - 435 lots of lawyers
              DOJ - lots and lots of lawyers
              Many cabinet appointees are lawyers

              Is it any wonder people arent happy with them? Congress collectively has a public approval rating im the single digits and has been that way since the turn of the millenium
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              • Posted by 9 years, 8 months ago
                Why are so many of these positions filled with lawyers? I have a couple of theories.

                1) The law is about control. It attracts those who like to control. Politics is about control.
                2) It takes a lot of money and time to run for office. Many lawyers are parts of partnerships and have high margins. The partnership can afford to have one partner not servicing clients for the time it takes to run for office (incidentally, the same goes for doctors), and their clients are often serviced for the most part by clerks and paralegals in any case. Most "normal" workers, particularly blue collar, cannot afford to take off the time it takes to run for office.
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              • Posted by khalling 9 years, 8 months ago
                I agree. It would be nice to see more business people in Congress. Rand Paul is a surgeon. Often lawyers are interested in governing. A Supreme needs to be an expert in law. We historically have had some justices who were not lawyers. One of my favorite characters in literature is a lawyer, Atticus Finch.
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                • Posted by 9 years, 8 months ago
                  Atticus was a just man, who happened to practice law. He didn't need to practice "law" to defend Tom Robinson, he practiced honesty. Even so, he lost - a moral lesson that even the good on a righteous quest, can lose to evil.
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                • Posted by Hiraghm 9 years, 8 months ago
                  Tom Coburn is a doctor.

                  I'd like to see more engineers in Congress.

                  Most of my favorite characters in literature are engineers.
                  I think my favorite lawyer in literature is James J. Garsh from "Citizen of the Galaxy". (My favorite tv lawyer is Samuel T. Cogley, who defends Captain Kirk at his court martial... followed by ADA Benjamin Stone in the original "Law and Order").
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5ag8pwI...

                  We have 9 SCOTUS justices who don't seem to grasp the Constitution, and an occupant of the White House who's allegedly a professor of Constitutional Law who seems clueless as to what is actually IN the document.
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        • Posted by 9 years, 8 months ago
          Why do you assume that this post was meant to "give a bad rap" to lawyers? I asked a question, that was all. I was interested in where AR might position lawyers amongst the other professions clearly delineated as shruggers in the Gulch.
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          • Posted by khalling 9 years, 8 months ago
            I was referring to my post yesterday. Several comments were made which I can certainly understand. I just wanted to point out on your post many admirable people were and are lawyers and therefore worthy of the Gulch.

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            • Posted by 9 years, 8 months ago
              Just so I understand, is "admirable" the standard for admittance, in your view?

              Don't know how I think about that - I'd need to give it some thought. I can't think of anyone whom I admire that I wouldn't want to invite. I can think of a few whom I would, but don't necessarily admire. Hmmm, deserves more thought.
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              • Posted by khalling 9 years, 8 months ago
                my view of admirable, yes, if I am creating a gulch.
                the standard for admittance culminates in living the Oath.
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                • Posted by 9 years, 8 months ago
                  So, according to your rules, I'm out.
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                  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 8 months ago
                    because you won't take the oath?
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                    • Posted by 9 years, 8 months ago
                      Because I couldn't live that oath as you define it.
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                      • Posted by khalling 9 years, 8 months ago
                        Well Objectivism defines the Oath. I am frustrated that you are highly critical of Objectivism without looking a little more into it. But if I agreed to be in or start a gulch, I wouldn't just ask card carrying Objectivists. Galt asked producers to leave, I don't think he had some petty checklist. Producers stand out. They live the Oath...whether they understood it or not.
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                        • Posted by 9 years, 8 months ago
                          I do live the oath, using my definitions. So long as Objectivism advocates insist on atheism, I'm not interested. I am highly interested in Christian Egoism.

                          Why would you say that I'm "highly critical" of Objectivism? I find most of it perfectly acceptable. What I find problematic is the fundamental premise that owning oneself is self-evident. To me that has been shown to be untrue by historical evidence. I can no more reconcile that than you can reconcile that I believe that the same was bestowed on humanity by God. In fact, my derivation makes more sense, as God gave humans free-will, so some of them choose to use force to oppress their fellow man despite the fact that God gave each of us freedom. The "self-evident" theory would say that freedom should be the norm not the anomaly. I see Objectivism as being Pollyannaish regarding human nature, whereas theist teachings are more pragmatic regarding human failings.

                          I think that I've said this before, but for the starting point, my moral philosophy and Objectivism are pretty much congruent.
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        • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 8 months ago
          I am partly to blame for giving lawyers a bad rap in here. I like patent lawyers and real estate lawyers. Engineers and doctors have had an animosity toward lawyers for plenty of good reasons over the years.

          As for the bankers, there certainly are some good bankers, too. John Allison comes to mind. With banking, however, the entire system is based on a deception and is a well-entrenched system to reward spending and punish saving. It is designed to punish people who "play by the rules".
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          • Posted by 9 years, 8 months ago
            I would say that the law is also based on a similar system. The lawyers in legislatures and bureaucracies continue to add more laws and regulations. There is no way that the average person can know or comprehend all of these laws, so they require the assistance of "experts," lawyers and paralegals, to study and interpret those laws - and even they get it wrong a lot of the time. It's a self-perpetuating situation.
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            • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 8 months ago
              It's not a small cartel, but you are correct, Robbie, in pointing out how the government lawyers and the non-government lawyers have conspired to form a self-perpetuating crony situation.
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              • Posted by khalling 9 years, 8 months ago
                Again, we are focusing on procedural problems, which need to be fixed. We can see many of the founding fathers were lawyers. Hoover and Carter were engineers and terrible Presidents. Both Bushes had business degrees. Individuals, including lawyers, want to fundamentally reform an over -burdensome regulatory welfare state. The judge in the Gulch was a lawyer. The first president of the United States studied law but lead us to our founding as a brilliant military leader.
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                • Posted by 9 years, 8 months ago
                  Well, truth be told, Washington wasn't a "brilliant military leader." He was a fair tactician and strategist, but was able to hold both soldier and legislator together under seemingly insurmountable odds. A little luck (or was that divine providence?) didn't hurt, either.
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                  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 8 months ago
                    good point. I'm no expert on military leadership, but I think the "insurmountable odds" part as a leader in the military and a fledgling country, indicates some brilliance.
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                    • Posted by 9 years, 8 months ago
                      His genius, if you will, was in getting people to believe in him and in the cause. The Continental Army lost most every battle, but got very lucky in the few critical ones that really mattered - plus an enemy that relied too heavily on conscripts and mercenaries, not fighting for a cause.

                      One of the true "innovations" during the Revolution was not even a Washington or von Steuben developed tactic. It was those pesky colonist farmers (militia) who thought it better to hide behind trees and fire at the red coats (very easy to pick out, what with their red coats). The tactics of the day were to line up in a skirmish line 3 deep, the first course firing, the second aiming, and the 3rd reloading. The Brits complained about the colonists "not fighting fair" by hiding behind trees. I see this innovation in warfare tactics similar to the asymmetric warfare happening today. As I type this, I just got a notice that a 2 star gen was killed inside the Afghan military academy compound. That, too, is "not fair" but is something that we have to adapt to or lose.
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                • Posted by 9 years, 8 months ago
                  Actually, Hoover was only "terrible" because he had been left an economy verging on popping the largest "bubble" in history - by Calvin Coolidge - you guessed it, a lawyer.

                  Hoover dealt with the economic collapse poorly, no doubt, but wasn't the cause.

                  I'll give you Carter - but then just look at his schooling and that will tell a lot ;-)
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                  • Posted by khalling 9 years, 8 months ago
                    it's what you do with the hand you're dealt. Case in point-Reagan.
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                    • Posted by 9 years, 8 months ago
                      True. Reagan had the benefit of a demographic that was approaching peak spending. Largest boom in population growth (ever, I believe) reaching their peak spending period (46.5 yrs after birth - so that started in 1991 for the boomers born in 1945). Ten years earlier, they would have been in their mid-30's. Think about your own spending pattern, that's when many start increasing their incomes and buying more stuff, with it reaching a peak by 46.5.

                      Even Carter would have looked like a competent president had he been elected in 1992. You would have had to try very hard to screw up that economy.

                      Likewise, whomever is elected in 2016 will at best need to keep gov't out of the way so as not to further degrade the economy, but it won't likely rebound to any significant degree until the early '20's (children of the baby boomers).
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                      • Posted by khalling 9 years, 8 months ago
                        Did you mean Clinton? peak spending is a useful tool, but many other factors are at play in wealth creation and a booming economy. Look at the interest rates when Reagan came in to office-I think they even nudged a little higher under him under he starting turning around the ship by slowing down the regulatory system, he cut marginal tax rates, strengthened the patent system., etc. Clinton first and foremost inherited a fundamentally sounder economy, and under Gingrich, they slowed the rate of spending.
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          • Posted by CircuitGuy 9 years, 8 months ago
            "I am partly to blame for giving lawyers a bad rap in here"
            My impression is there is rent seeking in the legal industry. I think it's very ripe for disruption. The legal establishment won't like it, but eventually they won't be able to stop it.
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            • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 8 months ago
              The disruption in the legal industry started with LegalZoom, if not WillMaker.
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              • Posted by 9 years, 8 months ago
                Trouble is, they control the body of law/regulations and can change it seemingly faster than an external entity can react. Look at tax law, for instance. I don't know about you, but I'm still getting updates to my electronic tax prep software well into March.
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                • Posted by Hiraghm 9 years, 8 months ago
                  Thus is why we live in a republic. Thus is why I cite the Constitution and will have no truck with "precedence" or SCOTUS "interpretations" of the Constitution.
                  ---
                  "Cogley: "Books, young man, books. Thousands of them. If time wasn't so important, I'd show you something. My library. Thousands of books."

                  Captain James T. Kirk: "And what would be the point?"

                  Cogley: "This is where the law is. Not in that homogenized, pasteurized synthesizer. Do you want to know the law? The ancient concepts in their own language? Learn the intent of the men who wrote them, from Moses to the tribunal of Alpha III? Books."

                  Captain James T. Kirk: "You have to be either an obsessive crackpot who's escaped from his keeper, or Samuel T. Cogley, attorney at law."

                  Cogley: "You're right on both counts. Need a lawyer?"

                  Captain James T. Kirk: "I'm afraid so. "
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          • Posted by khalling 9 years, 8 months ago
            It would be great to see an efficient policing system. One that gave great customer service.
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            • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 8 months ago
              With regard to the lawyers, an efficient policing system would be the "loser pays" law that Britain has.
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              • Posted by khalling 9 years, 8 months ago
                I go back and forth on that. While I agree it would take care of alot of frivolous lawsuits I do think it is more important to change the laws regarding discovery. These procedural constructs put money in lawyers' pockets, tie up court systems and do nothing for the clients. Lots of time and money could be saved that way. As well, why is everything based on an hourly rate? People should be quoted a price for a product. Again, the court system is set up in such a way that 's difficult to do. db tries to always quote a flat fee or "to not exceed x." Sometimes things take more in depth analysis than the price agreed warrants, but people don 't enjoy feeling like they signed up to a money pit.
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                • Posted by 9 years, 8 months ago
                  There are pros/cons for either option. Pay by the hour you can stop any time you don't feel you're getting value, on the con side the lawyer can drag things out easily - so you need to have trust in them. Flat fee is a guaranteed cost, but to cover the possible contingencies the fee might be quoted substantially higher than it would in reality be so as not to get hit by unforeseen issues.

                  My business usually quotes customers a daily rate and a flat fee plus % of confirmed savings. The clients almost always take the hourly fee as that is a cost that they can control.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 8 months ago
    Other than the judge, there were no lawyers to my knowledge in AS. However, in our Gulch, we would need lawyers for the following: 1) handling any dismissals from Gulch society; 2) real estate agreements; 3) perhaps patent enforcement (but I hope not); and 4) handling minor disagreements.
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